Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MolsonExport]

What about payments for raising and educating citizens on another province's dime?
Many Canadian provinces have been exporting their young to the oil patch, and expensive, older/retired folk are left behind. Human resources are even more important than natural resources, and here, the Eastern provinces "give" much more than they "get".

[drew]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Absolutely, Manitoba is a leech province with an annual "equalization" handout of $4.2B; which increased ~20% for this year. The poor child of Western Canada. Compare Manitoba to North Dakota and one will shake their hand just how much better off the average ND resident is vs. the average MB resident.

The rest of Canada wouldn't kick Manitoba out after a post independent Quebec. Just close off the equalization tap to all provinces receiving it. Really, there should be no such thing as equalization. Why should SK have to subsidize MB and QC?

They don't. Every working Canadian citizen subsidizes provinces via equalization thru Federal taxes (i.e. income tax), including the citizens of the provinces that receive it.

Equalization is financed by the Government of Canada from general revenues, which are largely raised through federal taxes. Provincial governments make no contributions to the Equalization program. All Canadians are subject to the same federal income tax system and its progressive rate structure, regardless of where they live.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

What about payments for raising and educating citizens on another province's dime?
Many Canadian provinces have been exporting their young to the oil patch, and expensive, older/retired folk are left behind. Human resources are even more important than natural resources, and here, the Eastern provinces "give" much more than they "get".

Since I am from Atlantic Canadian families on both sides, I can also tell you that lots of people (actually most of them) who spend their working age years in the oil patch, end up retiring back home in the east. And their home provinces then have to provide them with healthcare in their older years when they're more likely to be a big cost to the system.

It's really an awesome deal for Alberta in particular!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by drew

They don't. Every working Canadian citizen subsidizes provinces via equalization thru Federal taxes (i.e. income tax), including the citizens of the provinces that receive it.

Equalization is financed by the Government of Canada from general revenues, which are largely raised through federal taxes. Provincial governments make no contributions to the Equalization program. All Canadians are subject to the same federal income tax system and its progressive rate structure, regardless of where they live.

Correct.

A well-paid lawyer in Campbellton NB contributes a lot more to the equalization pot than a guy who sweeps the floor for minimum wage in Calgary AB.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What percentage of influence does Quebec have in your mind on currency and monetary policy today?

It seems to me that Canadian policies on these fronts are an extremely difficult often impossible balancing act between sacrificing the energy sector (of say Alberta) or resources in general, versus hurting the manufacturing sector mostly concentrated in central Canada.

These two pillars of Canada's economy have wildly conflicting policy needs.

Well the Quebec government has little say but Quebec has a near veto on federal policy as the normal kingmaker in federal elections. Sure we have independant moneteary policy so this would reflect in a apolitical way national conditions. We can think there were long periods where a Quebec (and Atlantic Canada) policy would have been much looser.
On Trade Policy Quebec has a dominate position.

[Justanothermember]

Calling any province a 'leech' for being on the receiving end of the equalization program shows how little that person knows about the true intention and value of the program itself.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Since I am from Atlantic Canadian families on both sides, I can also tell you that lots of people (actually most of them) who spend their working age years in the oil patch, end up retiring back home in the east. And their home provinces then have to provide them with healthcare in their older years when they're more likely to be a big cost to the system.

It's really an awesome deal for Alberta in particular!

Like you, I am from Atlantic Canada with family on both sides; NB and NL to be specific. One has to remember if the Alberta oil patch or the jobs in Southern Ontario did not exist, these folks would have remained unemployed/under-employed in Atlantic Canada which would have created a drain on those provinces' social services. Many of the oil patch jobs are fly-in; fly-out. Though an individual is working in Alberta, their residence is still in Atlantic Canada and income taxes are paid to their province of residence; as well as dollars being spent at home. Even if an individual lived and worked outside of Atlantic Canada and returned home to retire, they would have to have a place to live. Likely, they would be living off a pension and/or a RRIF. Those financial instruments are taxed and the province of residence would be getting their cut. Plus, they would be spending money to live; hence HST and other tax revenues to the province of residence. It's not like they are living for free and are not contributing.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

Calling any province a 'leech' for being on the receiving end of the equalization program shows how little that person knows about the true intention and value of the program itself.

Why do Manitobans get so upset when told their province is on equalization and is the poorest province in Western Canada?

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Correct.

A well-paid lawyer in Campbellton NB contributes a lot more to the equalization pot than a guy who sweeps the floor for minimum wage in Calgary AB.

There are more floor sweepers in Calgary earning minimum wage than well-paid lawyers in Campbellton. Hence, Calgary floor sweepers contribute more to equalization than Campbellton lawyers.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Why do Manitobans get so upset when told their province is on equalization and is the poorest province in Western Canada?

You are the biggest troll in all the Manitoba and Winnipeg threads. You come and insult the city, province and citizens every chance you get, a leech of the Manitoba forum in your own form. Worst part is that you have zero ties to the city or province whatsoever. You can just crawl back under whatever troll rock you crawled out underneath of.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

There are more floor sweepers in Calgary earning minimum wage than well-paid lawyers in Campbellton. Hence, Calgary floor sweepers contribute more to equalization than Campbellton lawyers.

Whoa man. That's a stretch. Does a floor sweeper in Calgary care about the collective contribution of floor sweepers to government tax coffers, or does he just care about what he's paying?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Like you, I am from Atlantic Canada with family on both sides; NB and NL to be specific. One has to remember if the Alberta oil patch or the jobs in Southern Ontario did not exist, these folks would have remained unemployed/under-employed in Atlantic Canada which would have created a drain on those provinces' social services. Many of the oil patch jobs are fly-in; fly-out. Though an individual is working in Alberta, their residence is still in Atlantic Canada and income taxes are paid to their province of residence; as well as dollars being spent at home. Even if an individual lived and worked outside of Atlantic Canada and returned home to retire, they would have to have a place to live. Likely, they would be living off a pension and/or a RRIF. Those financial instruments are taxed and the province of residence would be getting their cut. Plus, they would be spending money to live; hence HST and other tax revenues to the province of residence. It's not like they are living for free and are not contributing.

Milton Friedman or Adam Smith might call this a "win-win".

Though BTW, all of the Maritimers I've known who worked in the oil patch were Alberta residents and tax filers from what I can ascertain.

I mean, you'd be crazy not to be if you could:

https://www.eytaxcalculators.com/en/...alculator.html

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well the Quebec government has little say but Quebec has a near veto on federal policy as the normal kingmaker in federal elections. Sure we have independant moneteary policy so this would reflect in a apolitical way national conditions. We can think there were long periods where a Quebec (and Atlantic Canada) policy would have been much looser.
On Trade Policy Quebec has a dominate position.

Quebec voters are just under a quarter of Canada's voting population but of course this province is known for being quite savvy when it comes to leveraging its political support.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though BTW, all of the Maritimers I've known who worked in the oil patch were Alberta residents and tax filers from what I can ascertain.[/url]

Uhm, yes. That's part of why Alberta's interprovincial migration stats look like they do. If you're being taxed in NB, you wouldn't contribute to the AB migration stats... so I'm not sure what he's getting at.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Uhm, yes. That's part of why Alberta's interprovincial migration stats look like they do. If you're being taxed in NB, you wouldn't contribute to the AB migration stats... so I'm not sure what he's getting at.

It's pretty easy to figure out what ozbald is getting at in about 90% of his posts:

blah blah blah Manitoba and/or Winnipeg sucks.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

You are the biggest troll in all the Manitoba and Winnipeg threads. You come and insult the city, province and citizens every chance you get, a leech of the Manitoba forum in your own form. Worst part is that you have zero ties to the city or province whatsoever. You can just crawl back under whatever troll rock you crawled out underneath of.

Thanks for the morning laugh. Boy, Manitobans are thin skinned. In terms of having zero ties to the city or province, perhaps that's true. Or perhaps I live in Tuxedo, take transit everyday to work and have a cottage at Whiteshell. Or I live in Calgary and drive my big honking Ford F-350 down the Deerfoot everyday.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by drew

It's pretty easy to figure out what ozbald is getting at in about 90% of his posts:

blah blah blah Manitoba and/or Winnipeg sucks.

Another thin skinned Winnipeger.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

What about payments for raising and educating citizens on another province's dime?
Many Canadian provinces have been exporting their young to the oil patch, and expensive, older/retired folk are left behind. Human resources are even more important than natural resources, and here, the Eastern provinces "give" much more than they "get".

Exactly. It's impossible to have both 1) Freedom of mobility + 2) Subsidized education and healthcare, without an automatic 3) Equalization payments.

Removing 1 is impossible (people will manage to change provinces if they really want to, there are ways to cross even the best Berlin Walls), so the only realistic option is to remove 2.

With your Atlantic Canada parents having paid the full cost of bringing you from cradle to able-to-work-the-oilpatch adult, you'd be free to move, and upon retirement you could also move to wherever you want, knowing you'll be the only one paying with your own $$$ for the entire costs of whatever you'll need for the rest of your life, including any and all healthcare.

In such a system, there would be no need for equalization anymore

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Another thin skinned Winnipeger.

Thank you for showing what a troll you truly are. Sad and pathetic.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Hecate

lol is manitoba threatening to separate every five years or so because they didn’t get their way?

Of course it's not! Manitoba is getting so much equalization per capita, it won't EVER want to threaten separating, that would be crazy! If anything, it's the other provinces who might kick it out! It won't ever leave.

By contrast, Quebec, which only receives small amounts of equalization per capita, can afford to pull that plug without too much of a QoL hit. It's why Quebec sovereignty is a realistic project, while Manitoba's, that leech province, is not.