WINSTON-SALEM | Development Guide - Page 42

deacfan · #**821** Posted **Jun 29, 2023, 3:19 PM**

I had to sign up for this discourse.

I’m sorry y’all, but this conversation just feels so wildly detached from reality. The only place the “Wake should expand their football stadium to 50k” conversation is happening is on a development website. Wake isn’t going to expand the stadium to 50,000. Not now, not in the 2030s, not ever.

Native Camel · #**822** Posted **Jun 29, 2023, 3:30 PM**

I understand what you're saying, F&M. I'm just overly pessimistic, having been a Wake fan since the stone age and have yet to see a consistently full stadium. Call it the Little Old Wake Forest (LOWF) syndrome, but it's almost impossible for a school of Wake's size to compete for major talent in football. I would love to see Wake football reach such success that they expand the stadium. Another issue is whether the ACC disappears, which many say is inevitable. If so, schools like Wake will be left out of the mega-conferences. I hope that won't be the case, but money rules college sports in this day and age.

yadkin · #**823** Posted **Jun 29, 2023, 5:34 PM**

Well, I still say Wake should not be content with being the always downtrodden, and have some bigger ambitions. It's the old W-S syndrome of horse-and-buggy thinking.

LynnAikens · #**824** Posted **Jun 29, 2023, 8:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Native Camel

I understand what you're saying, F&M. I'm just overly pessimistic, having been a Wake fan since the stone age and have yet to see a consistently full stadium. Call it the Little Old Wake Forest (LOWF) syndrome, but it's almost impossible for a school of Wake's size to compete for major talent in football. I would love to see Wake football reach such success that they expand the stadium. Another issue is whether the ACC disappears, which many say is inevitable. If so, schools like Wake will be left out of the mega-conferences. I hope that won't be the case, but money rules college sports in this day and age.

Wake would have to dramatically increase their enrollment to get 50,000 fans to a game. Winston-Salem is growing slightly but not fast enough to pull that many fans. Besides, there is a serious disconnect between the average citizen in Winston and WFU. They surely won't get fans from that city 25 miles to our east.

Matthew · #**825** Posted **Jun 30, 2023, 4:14 AM**

Wake Forest Football and really all of their sports had two big problems: Small enrollment and not many fans outside (and even inside) their home city. Even student attendance was low. The other ACC universities in the Carolinas have fans in other parts of the state. Wake Forest didn't. In recent years, Wake Forest has worked to turn-out students at games, raise awareness of games in Winston-Salem (better connecting the university to the city), getting their games on a very big signal, convincing big donors to donate for football facilities, attracting good sponsors, partnering with innovative fan experience companies, finding ways to connect alumni with football, and growing their fan base in other parts of the state, with great potential in the state's largest city. Their new schools of study and a large satellite campus, currently under construction, should also help. A lot of low-hanging fruit and a very small stadium. It's great to see the team getting ranked and having a star or two discussed nationally. Retention of that talent is likely their next big challenge and I'm sure they are working on it. If fans are leaving early, they likely need to work on fan experiences to keep them there. The past ten years have focused on that growth and likely the next ten years will continue to focus on it. They have had success with their efforts. It will likely take another ten years to reach where they need to be. Failure could be bad for the entire athletics department, if football continues to grow as the main money sport for colleges.

yadkin · #**826** Posted **Jun 30, 2023, 3:33 PM**

As usual, I love the optimism. But, the question remains as to why Wake is a school seemingly without major student or alumni interest (as indicated), which is apparently unlike “major” other schools in the State and which seemingly has disinterest throughout the State. It seems the same malady applies to W-S itself. Further, I should be leery of anything positive from that second campus - the jury is still out on that, but the signs are (as noted by several) not positive. One may even project as/if Wake becomes ranked more consistently games against large, popular opponents might be moved to the home of that second campus since it seems obvious no one including the university is interested in expanding Groves Stadium.

LynnAikens · #**827** Posted **Jun 30, 2023, 5:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

Wake Forest Football and really all of their sports had two big problems: Small enrollment and not many fans outside (and even inside) their home city. Even student attendance was low. The other ACC universities in the Carolinas have fans in other parts of the state. Wake Forest didn't. In recent years, Wake Forest has worked to turn-out students at games, raise awareness of games in Winston-Salem (better connecting the university to the city), getting their games on a very big signal, convincing big donors to donate for football facilities, attracting good sponsors, partnering with innovative fan experience companies, finding ways to connect alumni with football, and growing their fan base in other parts of the state, with great potential in the state's largest city. Their new schools of study and a large satellite campus, currently under construction, should also help. A lot of low-hanging fruit and a very small stadium. It's great to see the team getting ranked and having a star or two discussed nationally. Retention of that talent is likely their next big challenge and I'm sure they are working on it. If fans are leaving early, they likely need to work on fan experiences to keep them there. The past ten years have focused on that growth and likely the next ten years will continue to focus on it. They have had success with their efforts. It will likely take another ten years to reach where they need to be. Failure could be bad for the entire athletics department, if football continues to grow as the main money sport for colleges.

I have always said that successful teams either have good programs or good coaches. Good programs include having good coaches and fan bases, but having good coaches doesn’t mean having good programs. Wake, in most sports, only have good coaches. When that coach leaves, the schools must start from scratch. In my opinion, schools don't build facilities based on having just good coaches. It would be foolish for Wake to enlarge their stadium based on what the current coaches achieve. They need a program for enlarging facilities. EXAMPLE: WSSU ten years ago competed for several years as national powers in football, even making it to the national championship game. It wasn't that we had a great program, but great coaches with a perfect storm of events. My school never had a great program but good coaches. When the coaches left for more money, we took a fall back to where we really belong with our limited resources.

JMHO

Nomad9 · #**828** Posted **Jun 30, 2023, 6:34 PM**

Wake doesn’t need a bigger stadium. The “problem” is that it’s a small, rich, private, academically strong school in a traditionally blue collar area without having dominated any sports (Duke is similar, but their basketball history bridges that gap and enables a broader fanbase). The campus is beautiful but feels like a country club isolated from the surrounding city.

Add to that the presence of UNC and NC State, two public universities with more connection to locals and much larger alumni bases, and Duke (see above). Not to mention other public schools like App State and ECU. There aren’t many local fans up for grabs.

So with few “casual” fans, you’re stuck with mostly alumni and students. Alumni are pretty good about supporting the school and its athletics (I was shocked by the great turnout of Deacon fans in Omaha!). But there aren’t many of them (us), and they’re spread across the country. So you’re not filing up a huge stadium with local alums. Students? Many are from wealthy northeastern families where college football just isn’t a big deal, and that attitude shows at games. They’re usually off to some frat party by halftime, or they don’t care about sports and stayed back at the dorms/libraries.

All that said, Wake just probably isn’t ever going to have a large fandom unless one or both happen: (1) huge increase in enrollment (which probably dilutes the academic profile and character of the school), and/or (2) they go on to be a dominant force in basketball like Duke (we’ve been good in football, but we’ll never be a consistent top 4-5 program).

So all that said, I’d rather Wake focus on what it’s good at. Keep academic quality the priority, but continue to invest alumni $$$ to build state of the art training facilities so we can entice great recruits and at least be competitive. Consistent competitiveness will snowball alumni involvement and gradually build a broader fanbase. I’m probably in the minority, but I’d almost rather have a smaller basketball stadium on campus. The Joel is just big, sterile, and feels like…well, a bland municipal stadium rather than a beautiful facility tailored to Wake.

Anyway, go Deacs!

Winstonwalker · #**829** Posted **Jun 30, 2023, 11:15 PM**

Hi old friends! I had trouble joining this board but am happy to be seeing you all here. So sad about WSTB but many thanks to our longtime host there and here’s to lots of good conversations to come.

Winstonwalker · #**830** Posted **Jun 30, 2023, 11:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomad9

So all that said, I’d rather Wake focus on what it’s good at. Keep academic quality the priority, but continue to invest alumni $$$ to build state of the art training facilities so we can entice great recruits and at least be competitive. Consistent competitiveness will snowball alumni involvement and gradually build a broader fanbase. I’m probably in the minority, but I’d almost rather have a smaller basketball stadium on campus. The Joel is just big, sterile, and feels like…well, a bland municipal stadium rather than a beautiful facility tailored to Wake.

Agree, Nomad, with the idea of keeping academic quality the priority! Also about Joel. I’m not a fan of the university athletics industrial complex and hope for big changes in the years ahead. But there is an undeniable appetite for connection with colleges through sport (and it’s one of the few meeting places for folk of different political stripes these days) so I do appreciate the goal of enhancing the experience of Wake athletics.

Matthew · #**831** Posted **Jul 1, 2023, 4:21 AM**

On the subject of 633/635 West Fourth: I was trying to find more information on their plans and was informed Friday this buyer buys and sells property frequently and owns homes, land, and commercial properties. There is a chance nothing may happen to those properties. They could just remain as office and there is a chance an apartment developer could buy those properties from them in the future. If what I was told is true, there is still reason to be optimistic this site could become apartments with ground floor retail, when market conditions improve.

Matthew · #**832** Posted **Jul 2, 2023, 6:48 PM**

Projects & Construction:
I want to thank the photographers and local businesses, sharing updates on projects, who make this thread possible. Without you, these updates won't happen.

Award-winning wine and passenger rail news at Union Station? This could be an exciting update!

Yes, it's from the 1980s! They had two or three songs on the charts in 1986 & 1987.

• Video Link

As you can see, some weeks have more projects than others. If you add-up the four weekly updates, it creates the one massive update.

Kaleideum Science Museum:

Credit: Dale Briggs

Truliant Tower:
Removing the old signage and installing new financial company signage 30 storeys / 412 feet (125.6 metres) up!

Credit: WXII-TV 12

Credit: Dale Briggs

Credit: Bryan Lewis

Credit: WXII-TV 12

This was the building's original observation deck in 1965 - They are temporarily storing the removed letters there:

Credit: Ted Malinowski

Are those new color-changing LEDs? I guess they already installed the observation deck's lighting and it's obvious from how it's installed that the observation deck won't reopen any time soon. This was once the tallest office building in the southeast and it has a nice view when the Canadian wildfire smoke clears. It was among the city's tourist attractions, in the 1960s and early-1970s.

Brown Dog Brewing:
Brown Dog Brewing could be Winston-Salem's next craft beer brewery. There are few details at this time, but many steps are required to open a brewery.

Forsyth County Courthouse:
Workers are removing the construction fencing.

Credit: winstonwatchman

Credit: winstonwatchman

You can see the steps on the left (near the cone) that take you below the skybridge and to downtown's IQ District:

Credit: winstonwatchman

United Health Centers Northeast:
A 12,000 square-foot health care facility will be constructed at Northwest and Liberty Street, by United Health Centers. From what is said, it should be completed in the next two years or less. I'm not sure if we will follow this project, but I wanted to let those living or working near this site know what is being constructed there. It looks like a good project! It's the southwest site at the intersection.

Park at 74:
Installing an elevator at the under construction 110 Business Park Building.

Crane lifting the elevator into place:

Credit: frontstreetcapital

Lowering the elevator into place:

Credit: frontstreetcapital

New Tenants/Leases:
Lill Dipper will return to 308 North Patterson Avenue, in downtown's IQ District. However, they now have a "new name" and sell a few more items. They are now a smoothie, milkshake, ice cream, and coffee business called "Gnarly Blends." Same owners... slightly different concept.

4th and Green Apartments & Retail:

Credit: Michael Sears

Credit: Michael Sears

The tower crane:

Credit: C.P. Tew

Steep terrain with this building's tower crane, seen with Canadian wildfire smoke:

Credit: Brandon Ore

Weeks Facility:
This 755,599 square-foot building, that was once the largest in the Carolinas, is close to being acquired by Phoenix Investors of Milwaukee, WI.,. They are known for renovating older structures for today's tenants. It sounds like the right acquirer is buying it.

East Tower:

Credit: DTwM3-ehEcg

Economic Development:
Greater Winston-Salem (economic development organization) is currently in talks with 12 life-science companies, 4 aerospace companies, and 3 corporate headquarters about moving to/locating in Winston-Salem.

Kimel Park: Built!

Remember this MOB (medical office building) project from last year? It's now completed!

Credit: frontstreetcapital

Brouwerij DuBois:
This craft beer brewery project has entered the permitting phase. Maybe we will see construction photographs, soon?

Alternative Transportation:

Downtown Streetscape:

• Video Link

• Video Link

Original Belgium Block Paving on Fourth Street:

Credit: Brent Peters

Amtrak at Union Station:
Information I posted here from the Mayor Pro Tempore is now confirmed and you read about it here first! This is a step forward in restoring passenger rail at historic Union Station. The Corridor Identification and Development (Corridor ID) Program will identify intercity passenger rail routes ready for development and implementation. "For each selected Corridor, FRA (Federal Railroad Administration) will initially award the grantee $500,000 for eligible activities related to the initiation of a grantee’s Corridor development efforts to include the development of a scope, schedule, and cost estimate for preparing a service development plan (SDP) for a Corridor."

This appears to be a restoration of Norfolk-Southern's L-Line for passenger rail:

Credit: Amtrak

A large historic wooden trestle in downtown Winston-Salem needs to be rebuilt to bring this line back into service. If it was non-stop between Winston-Salem and Charlotte it could be a faster route between the Triad and Charlotte?

Off-Subject:

Lam Museum of Anthropology:
Winston-Salem's Lam Museum of Anthropology will present a display of ancient Egyptian objects at the Milton Rhodes Arts Center in downtown Winston-Salem. The exhibit includes a painted piece of mummy casing, goddess figures, small tomb figures, perfume bottles, oil lamps, and falcon mummies.

JOLO Winery Wins National Competition:
JOLO Winery & Vineyards won for the best rosé in the national American Fine Wine Competition, beating several California wines. Yes, the best rosé, which has become a very trendy wine in recent years. The 2022 JOLO Pink from JOLO Winery & Vineyards, in the Winston-Salem region's Yadkin Valley American Viticulture Area (AVA), won The Rosé Competition 2023. It does seem as if Winston-Salem's Yadkin Valley is gaining more recognition as a top wine region. It should help with tourism, too. I posted a video of this vineyard and winery, around three years ago. I'm guessing it will become very difficult to find that wine after this major competition win?

JOLO Winery & Vineyards has won other awards this year, such as 13 awards in the 2023 San Francisco Chronicle's wine competition, including a double-gold for the 2022 JOLO Pink. Very impressive year for them! If you've never been on a wine tour of the Winston-Salem region, you should add it to your list of things to do on a trip here.

New Web Series Based in Downtown Winston-Salem:

• Video Link

Random Photographs:

Movies at "Muse Winston-Salem" Museum:

Credit: muse_winston_salem

Juneteenth Celebration:

Credit: innovationquarter

Credit: David Swift

Credit: bestofwinston

A county commissioner:

Credit: csoesbee

Credit: roundlensphotoco

Your City

DCMetroRaleigh · #**833** Posted **Jul 2, 2023, 10:10 PM**

Wonderful updates, Matthew. It’s great to see Winston Pride has become such a huge event.

winston's finest · #**834** Posted **Jul 4, 2023, 9:38 AM**

The name Weeks sounds familiar but I am not sure where it is. Is the Weeks facility on the south side of town?

Also, do we know who will be locating in the industrial building at Park at 74?

Matthew · #**835** Posted **Jul 6, 2023, 4:32 AM**

Weeks was constructed by Hanes on the north end of the city, around 1960. It's across the street from the current location of Kaleideum North. That road is actually named for the building.

I think 110 Business Park is the Netceed Building? I guess I should start using that name for the building?

Razorblaze · #**836** Posted **Jul 7, 2023, 3:31 PM**

I’m gonna jump back to the discussion of Wake Forest and the buzz surrounding it right now. I have the privilege of knowing several workers in the football department and athletic department there and I am very optimistic about the future of the program. The football facilities at the Reynolda campus are some of the best in the power 5 and are continuing to improve when the Sutton Center is completed in the fall. Believe it or not, this is a major consideration for many players when deciding where to commit. I know for a fact that the incoming recruiting classes will be incredible based on the commitment numbers and social media presence of current players and commits. Beyond that, the Wake Forest baseball success this year sparked more pride for the school than I’ve seen in recent history, and I really believe this will transfer to football. What I’m saying is that the athletic department at Wake is not going to slow down anytime soon, and I can really see it becoming a major fan base and constant powerhouse in many sports.

Matthew · #**837** Posted **Jul 10, 2023, 4:52 AM**

Projects & Construction:
I want to thank the photographers and local businesses, sharing updates on projects, who make this thread possible. Without you, these updates won't happen.

A new headquarters moving here, a downtown pizza restaurant ranked among the nation's best, work finally starting on the Liberty Plaza Building exterior renovation, and an 80s song of the week with "Fourth Street" in the title! Yes, a very exciting update!

• Video Link

We didn't make it to the next page for this week's update. The updates load faster when we only have one on a page. It is a sizable weekly update.

Truliant Tower:

The "Winston Tower" label scar is visible... they should add fresh paint before installing new signage:

Credit: Bryan Lewis

Kaleideum Science Museum:

Credit: Luke Soares

Liberty Plaza Renovation:
This building has needed a cleaning for decades. It will be interesting to see if they paint around the window surrounds in blue; yellow; and green, as seen in the renderings. I think cleaning it is enough, but they may still want to be creative in updating the building's appearance. This building is now leased by several "creative" businesses and organizations.

Cleaning the exterior of the building:

Credit: Luke Soares

8 W 3 Apartments & Retail:

We haven't seen an update on this project in a long time!

Credit: 2cBLDS5OI2E

1782 George Stockburger House Restoration:

The Dumpster (Do I see knob-and-tube wiring?):

Credit: Royce Thompson

Netceed Building:
Instead of using the multi-building development's name (Park at 74) as the name for this project, I'm changing it to Netceed Building. It does have a tenant and name.

Another look at the modular elevator, from Resolute Elevators:

Credit: landmarkbuildersinc

Credit: landmarkbuildersinc

East Tower:

Look at the extremely high floor-to-ceiling heights on this project:

Credit: Darrell G Hawkins

New Headquarters:
Mission Mobile Medical, a company that designs and manufactures mobile medical clinics used around-the-world, is the area's newest headquarters. They will move into the former Dudley Products headquarters, which allows them to expand to a size five times larger than they are today. They didn't buy the hotel and conference center on the campus and those will be sold separately. No incentives are involved.

Two Cities:

Credit: DWSP

Interstate 74:
Workers are constructing a new bridge and travel lanes to connect the new I-74 construction to the existing I-74.

4th and Green Apartments & Retail:

Credit: Michael Sears

Off-Subject:

Winston-Salem Among Hottest Housing Markets:
Winston-Salem ranks among the hottest U.S. housing markets according to Bankrate’s new Housing Heat Index. Bankrate analyzed 212 metro areas, examining appreciation of home values, employment levels, job growth, population trends, home listings, and typical selling times.

Chairwoman of the Association of American Medical Colleges:
Winston-Salem's Dr. Julie Ann Freischlag was selected as 2023-2024 chairwoman of the Association of American Medical Colleges.

Top 50 Pizza - Mission Pizza Napoletana:
Mission Pizza Napoletana, in downtown Winston-Salem's Arts District, is ranked the 22nd best pizza in the United States by The Top 50 Pizza. Owner Peyton Smith was also a semifinalist for a James Beard Award for Best Chef Southeast, last year. The Top 50 Pizza ranked Una Pizza Napoletana in New York as the #1 pizza in the nation.

Random Photographs:

10,200 fans inside the baseball stadium and more fans along the roadsides, to see fireworks?

Credit: John Holland Jr.

Credit: paediayang

Your City

DCMetroRaleigh · #**838** Posted **Jul 10, 2023, 3:09 PM**

I tell ya, the folks building 4th and Green should be behind all W-S construction projects. No ballyhoo announcements or fanfare, but boy, do they get to work and build with the quickness!

yadkin · #**839** Posted **Jul 10, 2023, 3:56 PM**

Thanks for this great update Matthew.

“Interstate 74:
Workers are constructing a new bridge and travel lanes to connect the new I-74 construction to the existing I-74.” I really hope the existing to be orphaned section of I 74 to I 40 is given an Interstate designation like I 474 or I 674 or I 874. This is critical, yep critical but NC does not seem to do this in W-S - generally only in other NC cities.

Matthew, you didn’t mention work on revitalizing the Smith Reynolds terminal to its former glory whilst adding current state-of-the art updates. The article in the WSJ indicated Smith Reynolds is viewed by one official as W-S’s “front door.” Good idea but meaningless until commercial service is restored. Recall, nationally W-S is viewed as having no airport unlike Raleigh/Durham.

Matthew · #**840** Posted **Jul 11, 2023, 4:24 AM**

Smith Reynolds Airport Restoration is already a project on our first post project list. It has been discussed here for a few years and I think work started on building systems and tech (the things you don't see) around Spring of last year? Much of what you see in that article is on the project's entry in this thread's first post, along with other things they didn't report. I'm guessing this announcement is likely the start to visible restoration to the facade and lobby? It will be like both a museum and modern airport. Unless something has changed, they should have two airplanes on display. One hanging from the waiting room ceiling and the other outside. I think the outside plane is a DC-3 in Piedmont Airlines livery? You can see reporting in this thread, over the past few years, of plans to demolish the old Piedmont Airlines waiting room from 1963, create the food truck area, office space for aerospace companies, restoring the facade, etc.,. I'll include the airport in the next update with a few more things not reported.

My wife is talking to me while I'm writing this, so please forgive any errors.