Rapid Transit

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by crhayes

Well, logically Toronto should have LRT before we do. Their population is 5 times greater, way denser, and they are definitely in need of it more than Hamilton.

Also, to be fair to Toronto they had the Eglinton line actively on the books for a few years now before Metrolinx was going with their current mandate. Hamilton hasn't had any LRT plans until Metrolinx 'arrived' on the scene.

Because of that it makes sense that Toronto is ahead of Hamilton.

Metrolinx and Toronto are squabbling over how the Eglinton line will take shape, surface or with subterranean sections. That might cause a delay for that project and Hamilton should be ready to swoop in with a firm plan and take Toronto's thunder.

Now don't think for a minute McIaasc wouldn't use a plan from Hamilton to leverage his 'want' from Toronto, i.e. if you don't want to do it the Metrolinx way, then Hamilton is ready with a plan in hand and looking for the money......

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by omro

While I agree with most of what you have said, with regard to the above...

Hamilton should be able to have LRT at the same time as Toronto.

Parallel upgrades rather than sequential.

welcome to Hamilton Omro...our citizenry has bought into the lie that we're second class and don't deserve whatever TO gets.
For the record, they have a subway system. We have buses. No reason why we can't get LRT at the same time.
Except for the fact that they don't give a rats backside about Hamilton.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

welcome to Hamilton Omro...our citizenry has bought into the lie that we're second class and don't deserve whatever TO gets.
For the record, they have a subway system. We have buses. No reason why we can't get LRT at the same time.
Except for the fact that they don't give a rats backside about Hamilton.

They may not care, but it all comes down to money. If they don't have the money to do both projects at the same time they are obviously going to choose Toronto first considering:
A) its the capital of Ontario
b) business capital of Canada
c) an icon for our country
d) 5 times more population than Hamilton
e) Way more in need than Hamilton

Have you ever tried coming home from Toronto at 3 in the afternoon? Gridlock starts at like 2:30 everyday...actually even earlier on Fridays!

The federal govenments plan for Transportation is to increase the number of Go buses....are you kidding me? Maybe we should start attacking the federal government for not playing a large enough role.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by crhayes

They may not care, but it all comes down to money. If they don't have the money to do both projects at the same time they are obviously going to choose Toronto first considering:
A) its the capital of Ontario
b) business capital of Canada
c) an icon for our country
d) 5 times more population than Hamilton
e) Way more in need than Hamilton

Have you ever tried coming home from Toronto at 3 in the afternoon? Gridlock starts at like 2:30 everyday...actually even earlier on Fridays!

The federal govenments plan for Transportation is to increase the number of Go buses....are you kidding me? Maybe we should start attacking the federal government for not playing a large enough role.

Even more reason to spread the funding around and help get some of these lines up and running in Hamilton. Instead of placing all our eggs in one basket we all call Toronto wouldn't it be wiser to spread the money for transportation infrastructure. If we had better infrastructure in place in Hamilton like Via Rail, 24 hours Go Transit, LRT lines, etc... this would make Hamilton more attractive for people in the GTA and other parts of the country to move here. Your example of the Toronto gridlocks only proves that we need to get serious about how we manage the growth of the region and its only going to get worse and not better when you see for yourself when driving into Toronto, 50+ cranes scattered throughout their sklyine as they're experiencing a Condo Boom in hogtown.

I remember reading an article not too long ago in one of the Toronto magazines where they were suggesting Toronto become their own province. Sort of a City-state which would then mean a new capital for Ontario would have to be found. If they ever went ahead an idea like this one I could see that benefitting Hamilton in many ways.

As far as when people say "Toronto doesn't give a rats behind about Hamilton" well, why should they? They are Toronto and we are not a part of them. What we need to do here in Hamilton is borrow a page from what is happening next door K-W, Cambridge and Guelph. All those cities are working together for the betterment of the whole region. Their economic development departments are working together to for example when Cambridge ended up getting Toyota plant built there K-W and Guelph were just as happy for them as if it were them getting it because when one of them lands a good sized company like that then the whole region wins as a whole. Canadian Business magazine came up with theor rankings for the Top cities in Canada in which to do business in and Kitchener-Waterloo came in first and Jim Balsillie of Research In Motion was on the cover of the magazine.

So what does the above have to do with Metrolinx and transportation infrastructure? We here in Hamilton need to get into some sort of a regional partnership like they have next door with K-W, Cambridge and Guelph. I would pick Brantford, Burlington, St.Catharines for this regional partnership, maybe even throw in Niagara Falls and start-up another group like the Metrolinx to cater to the cities and towns in this part of the province because if we wait for the Toronto people to fund our transportation projects he in Hamilton and the surrounding areas we might just find that all we'll do is wait with nothing heading our way except for empty promises.

[go_leafs_go02]

We don't need to make ppl commute longer. if you work in Toronto, then you should live in Toronto. Commuting further distances isn't a good thing, and Hamilton shouldn't come a bedroom community to Toronto. Jobs should be located reasonably close to the home, which would result in less traffic. Hamilton's goal for the A-Line and B-Line is to move commuters around locally.

Just pricing has made it fiscally impossible for one to live near their work, if it's in downtown Toronto.

[SteelTown]

Rapid transit funding hits gridlock

October 16, 2008
Rachel De Lazzer
The Hamilton Spectator

City staff are scrambling to find out how much the municipality would be on the hook for to cover hoped-for rapid transit plans, if the province won't pay the full capital costs.

The city has been planning based on the premise that the capital for an estimated $1.1-billion worth of rapid transit lines -- one east-west, and one north-south -- would appear in the first five years of the Metrolinx budget.

But Metrolinx chair Rob MacIsaac made comments at a Spectator editorial board meeting on Tuesday suggesting that municipal city managers should put money aside to fund such projects. He also said Metrolinx would only fund a "bare bones" version of rapid transit lines, though Hamilton would likely appear in Year 4 or 5 of the agency's 2009-2013 budget.

Acting city manager Joe Rinaldo says city staff will try to get a better handle on what Metrolinx expects the city to contribute, if anything, at a meeting with the agency this week or early next week.

Rinaldo says if Metrolinx insists on a contribution, that could seriously affect council's decision to pursue rapid transit.

"If, for example, they ask for 50 per cent contribution, that's going to be problematic.

"If they are asking for much less than that, a token contribution, that might be a different ball game," said Rinaldo, referring to roughly 5 or 10 per cent.

Many councillors feel full coverage is the only workable possibility for cash-strapped Hamilton.

Rapid transit "can only be supported if all capital costs are covered by Metrolinx," said Ward 12 Councillor Lloyd Ferguson.

[SteelTown]

LRT: City not 'ready to go'
York Region gets a leg up

October 16, 2008
Rachel De Lazzer
The Hamilton Spectator

Metrolinx chairman Rob MacIsaac says Hamilton has made a great pitch for funding for rapid transit but "that's different than being ready to go."

At a Spectator editorial board meeting on Tuesday, he pointed to York Region as an example of being ready. He said the first projects to be funded in the Metrolinx budget are likely Toronto projects.

York has already done environmental assessments.

York Region got a head start on its rapid transit plan back in 2001.

One of the first things it did was pull together a consortium of planning, engineering and construction firms, says Mary-Frances Turner, vice-president of the York Region Rapid Transit Corporation.

The corporation was created by the region solely to advance rapid transit there.

In September 2005, it kicked off the first phase of its rapid transit plan with buses that operate in mixed traffic.

Today, it has 135,000 riders a day.

It's pushing Metrolinx for funding to extend Toronto's two subway lines to Highway 7 and move its rapid transit buses into their own dedicated bus lanes.

Hamilton started studying rapid transit for Hamilton in November 2007. Since then, it has compiled a feasibility study, including public consultation with the community, says Jill Stephen, manager of strategic planning.

"We've gone from basically scratch to having studies where we know where rapid transit could fit, what it would look like, what the impacts would be," Stephen said.

-- Rachel De Lazzer, The Hamilton Spectator

Where councillors stand on rapid transit

THREE

Three -- Brad Clark, Sam Merulla and Lloyd Ferguson -- said they still support rapid transit but only with full capital funding from Metrolinx.

Eight councillors -- Brian McHattie, Bernie Morelli, Russ Powers, David Mitchell, Maria Pearson, Scott Duvall and Bob Bratina -- suggested their support of the project without full Metrolinx capital funding depended on several factors, such as how much the city would have to pay. McHattie and Powers said Metrolinx should cover at least two-thirds of the cost.

Monday, the public works committee votes whether city staff should continue to work with Metrolinx on LRT plans. Council votes Oct. 29.

Councillor Terry Whitehead said before replying to the poll, he wanted more details on why York had more infrastructure in place on rapid transit than Hamilton.

Tom Jackson, Robert Pasuta and Margaret McCarthy did not respond.

[SteelTown]

Eisenberger surprised at potential price tag

October 16, 2008
The Hamilton Spectator

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said yesterday afternoon he was surprised by MacIsaac's reported comments.

And last night, Eisenberger, who sits on the Metrolinx board, told city council that he still expects a major rapid transit project for Hamilton, with 100 per cent capital funding, will be in the five-year capital plan coming out after the regional transportation plan is approved.

Metrolinx, a Crown agency, is charged with planning and implementing a regional transportation plan.

Yesterday afternoon, Eisenberger said the city was drafting an e-mail to send to Metrolinx to "clarify" its position.

"My premise coming into this was and remains that the capital cost for this is going to be borne by the $11 billion that the province has identified."

He said he thought other municipalities expecting coverage of all capital costs would feel the same.

To start, Metrolinx has $11.5 billion in provincial cash, enough to fund seven years of a $50-billion, 25-year plan revealed this fall.

[raisethehammer]

Ferguson is a real beauty. Heaven forbid we pay any money to build this thing.
I'd like to know where he was during the Red Hill debates proclaiming the same logic.

[SteelTown]

Here's the Rapid Transit Feasibility Study - Draft Regional Transportation Plan (council to vote on LRT)..........

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyre...20PW08043d.pdf

[SteelTown]

All the lines such as B-Line, A-Line, S-Line finally mean something....

B-L-A-S-T

L-Line in Waterdown.

[SteelTown]

[SteelTown]

So it appears they want to extend the B-Line to Fifty Road, a future transit terminal.

[raisethehammer]

man, could you imagine a rapid transit network like that?? Wow, would be awesome.

"BLAST" is so stupid. honestly....

[flar]

The rapid transit line needs to go right into the core of Dundas where there are about 30 buildings of 4-18 stories otherwise it'll be a waste. University Plaza is no good.

[hamtransithistory]

A few thoughts
-First, WHOA.

OK then
-the T-line should be extended to meet the S-Line by going west through Ancaster along Golf Links and Wilson. (resurrecting part of the old Brantford & Hamilton radial)
-It's funny to talk about the S-Line along Garner-Rymal-Centennial, when a lot of the route is still undeveloped farmland. I know that by the time the S-Line is complete the area will be built up, just like along Upper James with the A-Line, but there isn't even bus service along a lot of this route.
-Extending the B-Line east along Queenston and then down Fruitland to the QEW is a great idea, but I remember that Stoney Creek was very anti-overhead wires back in the Trolley bus days. Hopefully things have changed. This would also mean that GO trains could be extended east from the James St station, and a GO station at Fruitland Rd would create another big transit node. (The S-line should also be extended down Centennial to the lake to connect with the GO.)
-I'm going to assume that the L-line will actually reach downtown Waterdown, they just couldn't fit it on the map. Because right now the L-line looks like it ends halfway up the hill toward Clappison's Corners. (Perhaps a new GO station should be built at Plains Rd.)
-Finally, with a network this big, we have to put in some connecting non-revenue tracks, so that we can divert trains in case of maintenance or accidents.

[raisethehammer]

when you say "built up like Upper James" what does that mean?? Upper James is anything but 'built up'.
It's low density sprawl forever.
Rymal won't be able to support rapid transit unless it is developed properly, NOT like Upper James.

[hamtransithistory]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

when you say "built up like Upper James" what does that mean?? Upper James is anything but 'built up'.
It's low density sprawl forever.
Rymal won't be able to support rapid transit unless it is developed properly, NOT like Upper James.

Whoops, I forgot the two words 'will be'

[SteelTown]

Hey, we're not T.O.
Hard-luck case may be key to transit help

October 17, 2008
Rob Faulkner
The Hamilton Spectator

Hamilton is making its hard-luck economy a major thrust of its bid for a rapid transit system.

Wealthier Toronto-area contenders like York Region are further ahead on rapid transit funding and proposals to Metrolinx, Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger accepts.

But he says he has a unique case to make, as a board member of the provincial Crown agency plotting regional transportation.

"My answer to (Metrolinx chair) Rob (MacIsaac) has been that Hamilton has a different circumstance than wealthier municipalities. We haven't had the assessment growth that a Mississauga or York or Durham or Oakville has had over the years," he said.

"We are using this as an assessment growth tool as opposed to managing the growth we've already had. You can't look at all these communities and say you are all in the same boat because we're not."

Metrolinx chair Rob MacIsaac said this week that most of the agency's much-anticipated first five-year budget, expected next month, will fund six or seven Toronto-area projects now undergoing benefits case analysis.

Second-round projects like Hamilton would likely appear in Year 4 or 5, he said. Despite admirable work by Hamilton city staff, he said, York Region is far ahead with its construction consortium ready and environmental assessments completed.

Hamilton is doing planning work with the hope that local rapid transit with full capital funding will be in the 2009-13 Metrolinx budget. Metrolinx shortlisted a King-Main east-west rapid transit line as one of the top 15 projects for the first 15 years of its 25-year plan. It could be rail or bus with dedicated lanes, but that is yet to be determined.

This week, MacIsaac suggested second-round projects, like Hamilton's, will start with funding for planning and related "predictable" costs. He clarified yesterday that Hamilton is doing feasibility studies and Metrolinx won't wait four years before starting its own studies of local routes.

"There could be movement, so I am not counting that out. But really, my broad message was that, look, the earliest years of the (2009-13) budget will not have funding for the Hamilton project. You'll start to see it appear in the later years and it will ramp up.

"It (Hamilton) is a priority for us and I would like to see it in the first five years, but my message really is that it won't be in the early years (of the budget). It will be in the later years."

Metrolinx only has $11.5 billion to fund its draft $50-billion, 25-year regional transportation plan; that will cover just seven years of work.

MacIsaac warned early this week that if he were a city manager, he would be putting money aside for projects now. He said Metrolinx is only likely to fund a "bare-bones" system.

It has to be determined which of the costs Metrolinx will cover.

"Municipalities will have different expectations about what these projects are going to look like, so the Metrolinx board has to come up with some determination of what costs are eligible and which ones municipalities should bear on their own," MacIsaac said.

John Howe, Metrolinx general manager of investment strategy and projects, said Hamilton light rail could be judged as a potential "urban redevelopment catalyst" to build a strong downtown core.

MacIsaac said it's reasonable for Hamilton city staff to estimate that shovels could be in the ground for rapid transit in 2011.

"Three years is probably reasonable, but we still have to get through our capital budget to see when we can actually get the financing in. I don't think there is a huge distance between what we are saying and what Hamilton would like in a perfect world."

[raisethehammer]

make up your mind MacIsaac...is it reasonable or is it not reasonable to expect shovels in the ground in 3 years. We've heard both in one week.