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  #821  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2008, 11:17 AM
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I'd like to see pics of the area, how it is now. 1ajs - are you up for it?
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  #822  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2008, 2:16 PM
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Harls would these help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viperred88 View Post
for some of you who are not aware of Point Douglas here are some pics surrounding the stadium debate, that Mr Christian has made available.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiansphotos/
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  #823  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2008, 4:26 PM
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spocket,

I didn't say that South point douglas was a perfectly functioning neighbourhood. I said it has the bones to be a great neighbourhood (that includes commercial development and could possibly even include a stadium/hotel/waterpark).

having others look to google maps to see what they're 'losing' was exactly the opposite approach I recommend in my last post. Paying Jordan van sewell a visit or taking a walk along the river will shed some light on the potential loses here. There are very few (if any) instances where erasing urban fabric and replacing it with something completely out of scale has proven successful.

Beyond the fact that South Point Douglas is not the wasteland you insist it is, (if you're relying on reputation or a drive down higgins in 2001, then I'd suggest spending a bit more time there in the present - things are different, but you have to look close) the proposal for the stadium is simply poor planning.

I'm all for looking at ways to reduce crime, prostitution, general seedy behaviour, but a stadium isn't going to cut it. Any of these problems this area might have would be better dealt with by introducing mixed-use density. The place needs people and it needs them round the clock, all year-long. The biggest loss would be that South Point Douglas has to bones to make it happen if we were only plan it properly.

Give me development here, but keep it urban. Keep the suburban development in the suburbs.
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  #824  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 3:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
what a giant surface lot cutting npd off from downtown and forcing us to use the main st subway witch is insanitary cause no one cleans it god even riding on the road it reaks under there


I would disagree with your outlook. Infact I would suggest that Point Douglas would be linked to downtown via Waterfront Drive and St.B (pedestrians and bikes) in a much more efficient manner than today. I can apprciate that some people in Point Douglas prefer to live next to a decaying industrial park more than urabn renewal, but connectivity to the rest of the city is not a valid concern.

This project is much more than a stadium ... but it is the driver of this project. No stadium .. no 400 million dollars flowing into the area.
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  #825  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 4:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
Sam Katz has to be recognized for his hard work, as stated by Doer.
.
i think it is hilarious that you will argue to the death that MTS, hydro, waterfront drive are all glen murray, socialist agenda, make work, mega projects, but this is all good.

this proposal is not "much more than a stadium"...its a stadium, a waterpark (not likely the one shown for the cost being discussed) and a whole lot of parking...it is nothing more than that.

the discussion has moved from the need for a stadium (which i still question) to the appropriateness of this proposal...will asper's stadium and waterpark attract the hundreds of millions of dollars in outside investment that you claim?...is the project the right scale for a neighbourhood like this?....is a stadium a catalyst for urban development?...is this an appropriate use of our riverbank?....can the city afford the infrastructure costs?....
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  #826  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 4:11 AM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
i wish asper liked NHL hockey instead of CFL football....
His dad liked the NHL just fine, but Murray & friends killed his plan to save the team (JETS) by fighting any arena development.

Now we have AHL because government refused to act, when Asper had offed to buy the Jets, in return for a new arena.
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  #827  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 4:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
i think it is hilarious that you will argue to the death that MTS, hydro, waterfront drive are all glen murray, socialist agenda, make work, mega projects, but this is all good.

this proposal is not "much more than a stadium"...its a stadium, a waterpark (not likely the one shown for the cost being discussed) and a whole lot of parking...it is nothing more than that.

the discussion has moved from the need for a stadium (which i still question) to the appropriateness of this proposal...will asper's stadium and waterpark attract the hundreds of millions of dollars in outside investment that you claim?...is the project the right scale for a neighbourhood like this?....is a stadium a catalyst for urban development?...is this an appropriate use of our riverbank?....can the city afford the infrastructure costs?....
There is a very similar arguement to the one put forward before the Forks was built. Almost identicle.
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  #828  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 4:25 AM
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yeah, uh, no...asper was actually the nail in the jets coffin, because he refused to step up...you need to research that a bit.

comparing a football stadium debate to the forks development is your weakest argument yet...claiming that they both had opponents (i dont actually think there was much debate about the forks), doesnt mean that they are equal in validity....if he was proposing a launch pad for moon rockets and there was debate about the merits of that project, would you use the same "forks" argument.

i love that you blame the government for not building an arena...you need to straighten out your arguments....you are starting to sound like a hypocrate.
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  #829  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 5:07 AM
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Smile forks development

I am not taking sides but stating the facts ALOT of people didnt want the area north of the tracks now the forks to be anything but a heritage park and all green space with NO commercial activity at all in it. kinda like upper fort garry LOL

Last edited by pegcityboy; Jul 2, 2008 at 5:08 AM. Reason: area east of the tracks not north
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  #830  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 5:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
yeah, uh, no...asper was actually the nail in the jets coffin, because he refused to step up...you need to research that a bit.

comparing a football stadium debate to the forks development is your weakest argument yet...claiming that they both had opponents (i dont actually think there was much debate about the forks), doesnt mean that they are equal in validity....if he was proposing a launch pad for moon rockets and there was debate about the merits of that project, would you use the same "forks" argument.

i love that you blame the government for not building an arena...you need to straighten out your arguments....you are starting to sound like a hypocrate.
Asper did propose to purchase the Jets if government would build the arena. That is a fact.

There was an arena proposal in the dieing months of the Jets to save the team... and Glen Murray and his little gang of anti-everything voted against it and fought it every chance he got.

And Yes .. there were people against the Forks development.... people questioned what benefits it would provide. How it should be financed .. ect ect ect. It was sad ... and yet it is now financially self sustaining and is also a source of city pride.

The MTS centre is also a huge success. It been a possitive contributor to Portage Ave... just as a new large scale development on South Point Douglas would be to its surrounding area. The True North development was a masterful concept to revive a once dead area of downtown.

What I don't understand is, you whine and complane when a Water Park is annouced for Polo Park (in which the city will recover its investment in 7 years through property taxes) .. AND you whine and complain even more when an even larger development is proposed for downtown.

And chances are you would whine and cry if it were proposed for a site at the exhibition park.

The bottom line is you don't like the Aspers... no matter where they want to build.
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  #831  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 5:11 AM
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Here is a comparison of the proposed site:



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  #832  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 5:40 AM
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its a well thought read to say none the least so enjoy
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Sunday, June 29, 2008
Did the Asper School for Business provide the recipe for South Point Douglas?
Our heads are spinning.

Reading about the Asper plan for South Point Douglas is like taking the most exciting ride at the Red River Ex without leaving home.

Is it because the plan is so gi-normous you can't get your head around it? Or is it because of a week of effective P.R. spin? We think it's a lot of both.

The project is so huge the press can't focus on more than one aspect at a time. For once, we don't blame them. The deal is so complex it seems reporters have glommed on to the stadium as the one facet they feel the public can absorb. Imagine having a giant, steaming, home-made pie put on the table after a Thanksgiving meal and you know you can only have one delicious slice because more will make you sick, and it's your favourite pie, so you'll have one large piece and dream about the rest.

The whole Asper pie is at least ten slices:

1. A new 30-40,000 seat football stadium that will be everything and more than was proposed for the Polo Park site. More parking at the new stadium than there is currently at Polo Park. And a tram system (wheeled, not rail, so don't get too excited) to move fans from their cars to the stadium and back.

2. The relocation of Higgins Avenue six blocks north to parallel the existing railway line

3. A hotel with rooms for 1000 people. (By comparison, The Fort Garry Hotel is 240 rooms over 10 floors.)

4. A great, big waterpark that will dwarf anything previously proposed for the city.

5. River-front condominiums

6. Commercial development over the remaining land which is twice the size of the Forks.

7. A new pedestrian bridge across the Red River to Whittier Park in St. Boniface.

8. New public docks and moorings.

9. A new underpass connecting Annabella Street in the South Point with North Point Douglas.

10. And the piece-de-resistance, Asper will buy the land where the current stadium now stands and build a "lifestyle shopping village" to rival Polo Park.

Plus any of these possibilities that have already been thrown around...

11. A new Louise Bridge

12. A bridge connection to Archibald St. in St. Boniface

13. A connection to the Nairn Overpass

And if nobody is thinking about gondola/cable cars across the Red, they should be.

Whoa Nelly. Hold the walls. The room is going round and round again.

What's fascinating is the silence that's coming from City Hall.

This is a city with a resident flock of boo-birds that goes ballistic over every single proposed development. Winnipeg's own Miss Negativapeg, Genny Gerbasi, objects when the Sun rises in the East. And not a peep out of her about the Asper plan.

When lawyer Ken Zaifman wanted to replace a dumpy hotel in the Exchange District and asked for a curb cut on sleepy Albert Street, the yappy boo-birds attacked him with brickbats for months and forced him to back down.

David Asper says he wants to eliminate three city blocks to make way for his stadium, to demolish 21 occupied homes, to move a major thoroughfare (Higgins) a block over, possibly to rebuild a bridge (Louise) -- and to have the city give him the land for his project for free. And he's met with dead silence at council.

Strange, don't you think?

The reaction from the public is as predictable as the frown on Lillian Thomas's face. Winnipeggers hate change. So there's the don't-change-a-thing crowd that wants the stadium to stay at Polo Park.

There's the conspiracy crowd (the people are getting shafted and everyone's in on it) and the hate-the-rich crowd (stop them from doing anything, raise taxes and let the government spend it because government knows better than anybody). And then there's everybody else, who really, really want to believe something good can happen but who have become cynical---from experience.

They've read countless stories that said the answer to the blight of downtown Winnipeg was for more people to live downtown. Then when a developer said he would build apartments downtown, the millionaires from the Manitoba Club (stand up David Asper) stepped in to stop the project, to override the city's land development process, and to humiliate the elected mayor and city councillors who approved the apartment project. Then, to top it off, the millionaires begged children to empty their piggy banks to "save" Upper Fort Garry for the Manitoba Club.

Oh, and then the newspapers still write stories about how the answer to the blight of downtown Winnipeg is for more people to live downtown.

These Winnipeggers want to believe, but can't. Certainly one thing that turns them away is the estimated cost of the project---$400 million and counting. They could visualize a $150 million stadium. And a $70 million hotel-plus-waterpark. And a condo development on the river. And a new Louise bridge. Just not all at once.

But that's because they don't realize that there's no shortage of money. The city is awash in money. The province is awash in money. The federal government is awash in money. They can't spend it fast enough.

Money is not a problem for the South Point plan. It's just a matter of which pot do you draw it from?

There's the New Stadium money pot. There's the Rapid Transit Corridor money pot. There's the Infrastructure (bridges and roads) money pot. There's the Residential-slash-Homelessness money pot. There's the Downtown Redevelopment money pot. There's the Tourism money pot (did you know Louis Riel's birthplace is in Whittier Park, and the park hosts the Festival de Voyageur?). There's the bottomless "Green" money pot (have we mentioned the geothermal heating and cooling planned for Asperville?).


And, of course, there's always the Aboriginal Something-or-other money pot. There's the Western Diversification money pot. The Riverbank Stabilization money pot. The we-owe-you-for-Spirited Energy money pot. And we're betting we overlooked one or two or six money pots we don't even know about.

If all else fails, those kids have had time to replenish their piggy banks.

In other words, that money is there.

It will be spent.

It's just a question of whether it will be spent on the South Point or somewhere else.

"If we don't seize the moment on this one, it'll be another 40 years before another one comes around," Don Borys, who owns Border Glass on Higgins, told the Winnipeg Free Press. Like it or not, he's right.

Reporters should be beating down the doors to the Asper School of Business. If this play is based on principles being taught there, the school is turning out graduates who will change the face of this country. If not yet, it will be the basis of the core curriculum in years to come.

Nobody is talking about this yet, but the plan for Asperville is more than a bloated commercial project. It's a power play unlike anything we've seen before.

A man who controls a $400 million private enterprise project becomes the Don Correleone of the city. Everyone has to kiss his ring. He gives many favours and asks for few. But he makes offers you can't refuse.

Mayor Sam Katz has looked very bad as the Asper plan unfurled last week. He complained the plan was leaked by Gary Doer then refused to discuss details. (WFP, June 24) He pretended he didn't know a water park was part of the plan.(Wpg. Sun, June 26) He spoke of the plan in platitudes and generalities. (WFP, June 26). He never once looked like a leader who knows what's going on and who is a player at the table.

David Asper had to throw him a lifeline Saturday by telling the Winnipeg Sun he "only thought of putting the stadium there a few weeks ago after Mayor Sam Katz suggested looking for alternatives to a Polo Park site that the province and feds didn't seem too keen on spending $40 million each on."

Nice try, David, but untrue, though we won't get into details today.

Asper, Winnipeg's newest powerbroker, snookered his predecessor Leo Ledohowski at every stage of the game. Leo thought he had the inside track with the Blue Bombers. He struck a deal for a new stadium on land owned by the Red River Exhibition. It would be built next to one of his hotels and a brand, spanking new waterpark. The Bombers had a splashy news conference announcing the plan.

Then---nothing. Each level of government said it wasn't prepared to give money to a stadium way the hell out of town. The Bombers, chastened, were forced to ask for other proposals. Ledohowski regrouped with a stadium in St. Boniface on the Canada Packers site. Asper, knowing how slow to change Winnipeggers are, said he would build a stadium at the old site.

And he won.

But Asper all along was working on the South Point location. He just had to wait for the right time to announce it. The time came when Treasury Board minister Vic Toews said he couldn't give federal money to a privately owned football stadium that would benefit the owner and no one else. Hello, Vic. Have I got a deal for you?

To add insult to injury, Asper bid on a city proposal to give $7 million to anyone willing to build a "world class" waterpark in Winnipeg. He even said he would put it at the South Point, but everyone laughed and said that was a stupid idea. Who's going to go to South Point Douglas to a waterpark? Are you crazy?

So Leo bid, and won, and lost. He will get $7 million for 66,000 square foot waterpark adjacent to one of his hotels. But he has to subsidize public access for poor kids for the next 25 years.

Asper, meanwhile, got to announce his own waterpark to be "created by the design team responsible for Disneyworld, West Edmonton & Niagara Falls water parks." He won't be subsidizing anyone. His new hotel can count on (federally-funded) visits from at least 15,000 schoolchildren being brought to Winnipeg each year to visit his sister's pet project, the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. And each kid will want to visit the waterpark, the cost will be built into the hotel room.

Oh, and the Fallsview Indoor Water Park at Niagara Falls is almost twice the size of the Ledohowski waterpark at 125,000 square feet including a mezzanine and outdoor activity pool. Adding marquee slides and rides would make it even bigger still. Will Asper downsize and embarass Winnipeg, or upsize and make us proud.

If 66,000 sq. ft. is "world class", what's 125,000 sq. ft. plus? Inter-planetary?

If built as planned, the Asper South Point will leave a number of losers in its wake.

- Corydon Avenue is past its prime and will suffer as the crowd moves to the new hot spot.

- The Forks will shiver as politicians begin asking why they're spending $2 million each year in subsidies when South Point Douglas is twice the size and doesn't require public money.

- The NDP will wonder why they backed a deal which only solidifies the idea that private enterprise should take the lead on urban revitalization with government standing by holding its coat.

- And Lloyd Axworthy's head will be spinning faster than Linda Blair's.

Axworthy was supposed to be Winnipeg's saviour. He was redesigning the city in his vision with the help of his bosom pal, the former CEO of the Crocus Investment Fund and soon-to-be defendant before the Manitoba Securities Commission, Sherman Kreiner. He was supposed to be showing the Left how the big boys do it.

And suddenly, its back to second-banana land because of that right-winger Asper.

Pass the Gravol.
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  #833  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 1:20 PM
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Boo-birds. Bahahaha!
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  #834  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 1:22 PM
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"The reaction from the public is as predictable as the frown on Lillian Thomas's face. Winnipeggers hate change."

So very true and rather unfortunate. A great read indeed!
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  #835  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 1:53 PM
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nice, well said
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  #836  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 4:40 PM
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Wow, great read indeed.
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  #837  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 5:10 PM
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I was wondering when this was going to come up. Who's gonna pay for the re-location of higgins and footbridge and ? The City says not them!
$150M for stadium infrastructure: Katz
By: Bartley Kives

Land assembly and infrastructure improvements required to place a football stadium in South Point Douglas and redevelop the neighbourhood could easily cost $150 million, says Mayor Sam Katz.

Katz suggested the inner-city revitalization project could cost the public purse considerably more than developer David Asper’s stated $40 million.

Relocating and elevating Higgins Avenue, realigning the south end of the Disraeli Freeway and fixing the Louise Bridge would cost at least $100 million, while the land assembly required for the deal could cost $50 million, Katz told reporters this morning.

The mayor said the city will not pay the $150 million tab, stressing Winnipeg will not sign up for any stadium deal that costs more than the scuttled plan to build a new home for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers near Polo Park.

Asper has said the South Point Douglas deal would cost the province $25 million and the federal government $15 million. But it remains unclear whether he will pick up the entire tab for land assembly and infrastructure improvements.

The city has a signed a letter stating they intend to work with Asper, but that does not mean a stadium will be built at South Point Douglas.

Last edited by wags_in_the_peg; Jul 2, 2008 at 5:12 PM. Reason: edit
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  #838  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2008, 11:42 PM
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A couple of Points: Izzy came into the Save the Jets campaign late at the urging of Len and Dave. Izzy told Loewen and his buddies to get the job done, or get out of the way. It was Loewen and his buddies that dropped the ball. Len Asper is involved with the new group and will buy a team as long as they don't get into an outrageous bidding war to do it.

Blackrod made a great point that I completely forgot about; and that being the sheer number of students that will be coming to Winnipeg annually to take in the Museum. They have it all figured out, which is a beautiful thing; and there's Doer thinking of his legacy before he bows out.

Just get it done.
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  #839  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2008, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
Asper did propose to purchase the Jets if government would build the arena. That is a fact.

There was an arena proposal in the dieing months of the Jets to save the team... and Glen Murray and his little gang of anti-everything voted against it and fought it every chance he got.

And Yes .. there were people against the Forks development.... people questioned what benefits it would provide. How it should be financed .. ect ect ect. It was sad ... and yet it is now financially self sustaining and is also a source of city pride.

The MTS centre is also a huge success. It been a possitive contributor to Portage Ave... just as a new large scale development on South Point Douglas would be to its surrounding area. The True North development was a masterful concept to revive a once dead area of downtown.

What I don't understand is, you whine and complane when a Water Park is annouced for Polo Park (in which the city will recover its investment in 7 years through property taxes) .. AND you whine and complain even more when an even larger development is proposed for downtown.

And chances are you would whine and cry if it were proposed for a site at the exhibition park.

The bottom line is you don't like the Aspers... no matter where they want to build.
asper gave 20 million to the cause of buying the jets...they needed 110....he pulled out of MEC less than 2 months after joining the effort....he never offered to buy the jets himself.

murray opposed the arena the year before, but during the time when MEC was trying to raise money for the team, he had swung in favour.

i think you are ass talking about opposition to the forks....

mts is a huge success...as a bulding...not as a catalyst for urban redevelopment...

i do whine about a private businessman getting a 7 million dollar donation from taxpayers to expand his suburban hotel.....i am in shock that you of all people dont agree.

i am critical of this development, because it is not right for the community....it is mindless to just support anything because it is "a big development".

i have no problems with the aspers....i loved izzy, and i love gail and hope she runs for mayor one day....i dont love the boys' politics, their propoganda rag newspaper, or their constant complaining about CRTC rules forcing them to contribute to canandian culture...but i am proud to have them as winnipeggers and thank them for their philanthropy.

my opinion of the aspers has nothing to do with the appropriateness of this proposal....its urban planning of the 1980's....a lesson learned by dozens of cities, long ago....i am not the only person opposed to dropping an out of scale stadium into a sensitive neighbourhood...anyone with two seconds of schooling on city building agrees with me.

i am a bombers season ticket holder and i hate those seats as much as anyone...but it isnt right in point douglas....i would have no problem with asper getting government money to build his original proposal.
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  #840  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2008, 1:22 AM
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You're right on track man. So is Kenny. That waterpark deal is shameful.

And for the record, The Forks loses a million bucks a year.
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