Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Quebec separating, sad to say, would be good for the rest of the country. They’d pay back their share of the national debt and we wouldn’t need to give them billions upon billions in equalization anymore. In their vain effort to preserve their language, they’d probably see a decline in usage faster, as that’s what isolation tends to do. Many national companies would pull out of the province and they’d see a massive decline in standard of living.

Again, many assumptions, not all of them relevant. It would allow MOC to define its own destiny, for good or bad.

[MolsonExport]

I can't understand people that overemphasize a province's value to the country on the basis of its wealth.

Quebec's contribution to the fabric of Canada is far and beyond that of many other provinces.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I can't understand people that overemphasize a province's value to the country on the basis of its wealth.

Quebec's contribution to the fabric of Canada is far and beyond that of many other provinces.

Could it be that in their subconscious, maybe Quebec has already separated from Canada?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Quebec separating, sad to say, would be good for the rest of the country. They’d pay back their share of the national debt and we wouldn’t need to give them billions upon billions in equalization anymore. In their vain effort to preserve their language, they’d probably see a decline in usage faster, as that’s what isolation tends to do. Many national companies would pull out of the province and they’d see a massive decline in standard of living.

Perhaps ROC will need Québec's money someday if their economy keeps growing, so... never say never, as the French saying goes.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This. It seems very unlikely that Quebec could gain full EU membership but it might cozy up to France and the EU quite a bit.

The potential for an independent Quebec to build a close relationship with the EU as a whole would depend greatly on the circumstance of the separation.

While an independent Quebec would likely be welcomed warmly in Paris, I would anticipate a much cooler reception in Madrid, especially if the divorce were to be messy.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

the English exodus and full control over immigration would make sure they were a very French speaking if backwater part of North America.

Culturally speaking I don't think they would be a backwater. If anything, Montréal as the primate Francophone city of a country finally on the map would probably become very hip in North America, kind of like Rome or Madrid in Europe. One could argue that they are more a backwater being a province of Canada with no international recognition.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I can't understand people that overemphasize a province's value to the country on the basis of its wealth.

Quebec's contribution to the fabric of Canada is far and beyond that of many other provinces.

Pour une fois que tu dis quelque chose de sensé dans ce fil... Un jour à marquer d'une pierre blanche, as the French saying goes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Culturally speaking I don't think they would be a backwater. If anything, Montréal as the primate Francophone city of a country finally on the map would probably become very hip in North America, kind of like Rome or Madrid in Europe. One could argue that they are more a backwater being a province of Canada with no international recognition.

In the context of North America, Anglo-Canada and the US often function like they are a single entity, and Quebec and Montreal are slightly on the margins of that. So on that metric, we are already a bit of a backwater in the wider Anglo North America.

Of course, that's a bit like saying that Copenhagen is a backwater when you look at it in the context of Germanic Europe.

In the global sense, neither Copenhagen nor Montreal are backwater cities, and Montreal as you say definitely wouldn't be more of a backwater if Quebec became independent.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

The potential for an independent Quebec to build a close relationship with the EU as a whole would depend greatly on the circumstance of the separation.

While an independent Quebec would likely be welcomed warmly in Paris, I would anticipate a much cooler reception in Madrid, especially if the divorce were to be messy.

There is no way Québec could join the EU. It has nothing to do with how the separation would take place, but just the fact that other European countries wouldn't want to bother with a non-European country (plus the risk of angering the US), plus the fact various European countries wouldn't want another Francophone country that would add more weight to France in the EU. Only the French basically would support Québec's entry in the EU (and the Walloons if they were independent).

So the only option for them joining the EU would be joining France, but obviously this is not going to happen either.

But getting closer to the EU, and using it as a leverage with the US (or Canada) in commercial negotiations, even veiled threats of joining the EU, is certainly something that I can imagine.

[Acajack]

The EU has multiple trade and other agreements with countries outside of its borders and even outside Europe.

This with an independent Quebec is something that Spain would be unlikely to block or unlikely able to block.

It's all a question of interests and diplomacy. Note also that Spain's leverage and power within the EU isn't as strong as its size would suggest, due to its lagging economic and financial woes.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In the context of North America, Anglo-Canada and the US often function like they are a single entity, and Quebec and Montreal are slightly on the margins of that. So on that metric, we are already a bit of a backwater in the wider Anglo North America.

Of course, that's a bit like saying that Copenhagen is a backwater when you look at it in the context of Germanic Europe.

In the global sense, neither Copenhagen nor Montreal are backwater cities, and Montreal as you say definitely wouldn't be more of a backwater if Quebec became independent.

What an independent Québec should do, however, is developing Québec City into a second multi-million international city. It would make the country more balanced, and offer more choices in terms of where to live. Also, with global warming, Québec City's climate will very soon be what Montréal's was a few years ago, so not as harsh as in the past. Québec City's natural site is far more beautiful in my opinion than Montréal's, and it has the charm of old cities that no other North American city has. It's a city with a lot of potential really, if only it could grow to 2-3 million.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The EU has multiple trade and other agreements with countries outside of its borders and even outside Europe.

This with an independent Quebec is something that Spain would be unlikely to block or unlikely able to block.

It's all a question of interests and diplomacy. Note also that Spain's leverage and power within the EU isn't as strong as its size would suggest, due to its lagging economic and financial woes.

Also, one point to note: in purely practical terms, integrating Québec in the EU wouldn't be too much of a problem. The EU already administers territories outside Europe that contain nearly 5 million people, so Québec would add 8 more million to those 5 million. The EU already knows how to handle 5 million people overseas, some living much further away than Québec. EU commissioners and civil servants routinely travel thousands of km across the Atlantic, Indian Ocean, and even Pacific to handle EU funds in those territories.

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The problem, as I've said, would be more a political problem, plus in any case it would make more sense for Québec to be in a customs area with its closest neighbors than with a more distant Europe, as distance increases the cost of trade.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Perhaps ROC will need Québec's money someday if their economy keeps growing, so... never say never, as the French saying goes.

Then they can pay canadians back for the billions and billions of equalization payments they have received since the programs inception Quebec has received over 50% of all equalization payments paid out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Then they can pay canadians back for the billions and billions of equalization payments they have received since the programs inception Quebec has received over 50% of all equalization payments paid out.

Then Ontario needs to pay back the 6 million in 1841 dollars that Lower Canada (today's Quebec) paid to erase the debt of Upper Canada (now Ontario) almost 200 years ago.

Quebec (Lower Canada) actually had a surplus at the time, while Upper Canada (Ontario) was drowning in debt. Quebec was forced to bail out Ontario with its own money.

Can someone please convert 6 million in 1841 dollars to 2024 dollars for us?

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Then Ontario needs to pay back the 6 million in 1841 dollars that Lower Canada (today's Quebec) paid to erase the debt of Upper Canada (now Ontario) almost 200 years ago.

Quebec (Lower Canada) actually had a surplus at the time, while Upper Canada (Ontario) was drowning in debt. Quebec was forced to bail out Ontario with its own money.

Can someone please convert 6 million in 1841 dollars to 2024 dollars for us?

I think it would be around $220,000,000, so Not even close to what you guys got in Equalization… lol.

[Hecate]

It just amazes me that even after we help them out, for over half a century, there is this bad taste in their mouths, and endless hate for Canada. it’s really kinda sad. It would be nice if we could function as a country in unity from coast to coast but that will never happen with the never ending chip on the shoulder.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hecate

I think it would be around $220,000,000, so Not even close to what you guys got in Equalization… lol.

I'll still take it. Please send the cheque.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'll still take it. Please send the cheque.

lol, should I give it to the natives?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Can someone please convert 6 million in 1841 dollars to 2024 dollars for us?

That's half the value of the Louisiana Purchase.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Hecate

I think it would be around $220,000,000, so Not even close to what you guys got in Equalization… lol.

That's not how it works. In terms of Canada's GDP back then, it would be more like 1,000 billion dollars today (or 1 trillion).

If Canada wanted to return those 6 million dollars from 1840, it would probably have to spend 10% of its GDP for a period of 10 years or so.