Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, that's always been a big pebble in the shoe of the Quebec sovereignty movement.

It's quite puzzling that in spite of this, Quebec's big dairy regions tend to be quite favourable to independence.

They probably believe the line that Quebec dairy would still have free access to the Canadian market and protections will remain in place to keep foreign dairy (including Canadian) out of Quebec. Now, if an independent Quebec was smart, they could transition their dairy sector into a New Zealand model and become a global dairy powerhouse.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Actually Canada can prevent that. Unless Quebec is going to completely exit our regulatory and customs area which would be a devasting economic shock as in one day they'd lose accces to US and Canadian markets (as well as EU, Mexico, Japan etc). I've talked to a few soveirgnists who note Brexit really draws attention to the imposisblyt of a seperation in 21st century economy. The keep our dollar no hard border let's form a sort of EU with the rest of Canada would mean we control Quebec's trade and monetary policy. It's the catch 22 UK ended up in.

PSPP is in favor of Québec having its own currency from what I understand (a major departure from previous PQ leaders, who were more coy and argued than an independent Québec should keep the Canadian dollar). You can perfectly have a different currency and be in the same common market (which is more integrated than a customs area). That's the case for Sweden or Denmark, who have their own currencies and yet are in the EU single market.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

They probably believe the line that Quebec dairy would still have free access to the Canadian market and protections will remain in place to keep foreign dairy (including Canadian) out of Quebec. Now, if an independent Quebec was smart, they could transition their dairy sector into a New Zealand model and become a global dairy powerhouse.

There were delusional brexit voters as well with often disastrous consqeuences for their livelihood. General economic problems aside nobody is at more risk than dairy farmers. The US would absolutely come for the whole monopoly but they obviously wouldn't get current access. Conversely but less so it's always been weird that Quebec City isn't more pro soverignty. Going from a provincial to national capital can only be positive for civil servants and the whole city's development.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

They probably believe the line that Quebec dairy would still have free access to the Canadian market and protections will remain in place to keep foreign dairy (including Canadian) out of Quebec. Now, if an independent Quebec was smart, they could transition their dairy sector into a New Zealand model and become a global dairy powerhouse.

While I don't believe in the power of the magic wand and recognize that Quebec independence would cause economic disruption, it's also not false that most things do have a way of sorting themselves out. Especially when they are somewhat mutually advantageous.

For all the talk about Brexit being a disaster, the UK actually isn't doing too badly in terms of GDP and other metrics, compared to Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

PSPP is in favor of Québec having its own currency from what I understand (a major departure from previous PQ leaders, who were more coy and argued than an independent Québec should keep the Canadian dollar). You can perfectly have a different currency and be in the same common market (which is more integrated than a customs area). That's the case for Sweden or Denmark, who have their own currencies and yet are in the EU single market.

And it makes perfect sense for the independence proposition to adapt and evolve with the times.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I expect he'll resign tomorrow. He has no other option left really.

So the news today: the leader of LR, the main center-right party, whose choice of an alliance with the far-right is rejected by almost all MPs in the party, has decided to barricade himself inside the party building today (I'm not making this up!). The #2 in the party called a board meeting to topple him, but he said she doesn't have the right to call a board meeting, only he can do it, and he locked the doors of the building to prevent them from reaching the boardroom. Some are calling him "complètement fou".

He's scheduled for an interview at 7pm with a news channel akin to Fox News. I bet he's going to play "the base against the cadres and MPs", saying he's calling a referendum of grass-root party members to approve his alliance.

This is completely nuts.

[kwoldtimer]

It's France. One expects news of a surrender soon.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It's France. One expects news of a surrender soon.

Didn't know you were the type to be prone to following the memes of low-information right-wing American media types?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The keep our dollar no hard border let's form a sort of EU with the rest of Canada would mean we control Quebec's trade and monetary policy.

But how would that be any worse than the status quo?

[New Brisavoine]

Latest update: the party leaders have met, not in the party building, since the doors are locked, but at the... Musée social (you don't make this up! I don't even know what this museum is about), and they have decided to exclude the party chief. He's not a member of the party anymore according to them. He'll probably exclude all of them now I suppose and call a referendum of grass-root party members... or indeed give up and surrender. Answer at 7pm!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lio45

But how would that be any worse than the status quo?

Well now Quebec's interests and economic results are taken into account. You could see us trading away Milk tarriffs for access to US car market for example. Quebec would likely see a severe recession but if Canada didn't there is no reason for us to cut interest rates. In the end the harder exit would be inevitable. More of an initial shock but gives Quebec more control over their future. They could devalue a new currency increasing competitivness to restore investment and exports.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

These have been two crazy days in French politics...

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...ue-son-va-tout

« Macron joue à la roulette belge », dit un analyste politique sur les ondes de France Info au sujet du déclenchement des élections.

Roulette belge? C’est comme la roulette russe, mais avec six balles dans le barillet.

[New Brisavoine]

^^


https://x.com/coppolacorneh/status/1799889635188830351

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...ue-son-va-tout

I watch French media from time to time and it shocks me on occasion how even in news and public affairs programming, you sometimes hear humourous references to Belgians being dumb (ie des blagues de Belge).

In Canada, you had basically the exact same jokes, but targeting Newfoundlanders. It's no longer socially acceptable to tell them, and you'd certainly never hear a media person or a politician tell one in public.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well now Quebec's interests and economic results are taken into account. You could see us trading away Milk tarriffs for access to US car market for example. Quebec would likely see a severe recession but if Canada didn't there is no reason for us to cut interest rates. In the end the harder exit would be inevitable. More of an initial shock but gives Quebec more control over their future. They could devalue a new currency increasing competitivness to restore investment and exports.

Exactly. In any event, the economy isn't the sole determining factor in whether a country exists or not. If it was, Canada would be part of the United States by now.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

U.S. officials discussed hitting Canada with trade sanctions over Quebec's language law
U.S government officials have debated whether Bill 96 violates trade agreements

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bil...rade-1.7230562

U.S government officials have discussed behind closed doors the possibility of imposing trade sanctions on Canada over Quebec's controversial Bill 96 language law, CBC News has learned.

Documents obtained by CBC News under the U.S. freedom of information law also reveal that American government officials are being told that the implementation of Bill 96 could result in fewer American products being shipped to Canada — not just to Quebec.

According to the documents, officials from the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative (USTR) have debated whether the legislation — which includes provisions that could affect things like commercial signs, trademarks and labels on products — contravenes trade agreements between Canada and the United States.

If I may say so, I think this might be a case where being in Canada actually hurts Quebec's cause.

In that some of these Washington types have in the back of their minds the mindset that Canadians are all your garden variety Anglo-Americans just like them. So little to no linguistic or cultural adaptation necessary until... wait... WTF?

The US doesn't have a problem with Spanish on the ground in Mexico or even Icelandic (about 300,000 speakers) in Iceland, so

[Hecate]

Quebec separating, sad to say, would be good for the rest of the country. They’d pay back their share of the national debt and we wouldn’t need to give them billions upon billions in equalization anymore. In their vain effort to preserve their language, they’d probably see a decline in usage faster, as that’s what isolation tends to do. Many national companies would pull out of the province and they’d see a massive decline in standard of living.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Generally speaking the Americans don't care what goes on internally in their neighbours and allies as long as it doesn't affect their economic and military interests.

So an independent Québec could eliminate the English school system and hospitals, switch McGill over to French and ban hijabs and the US wouldn't bat an eye.

Definitely true. There's a reason why despite the hue and cry from Anglo-Canada over bills 21 and 96, the Americans are only getting involved when the language rules negatively affect their corporations.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Quebec separating, sad to say, would be good for the rest of the country. They’d pay back their share of the national debt and we wouldn’t need to give them billions upon billions in equalization anymore. In their vain effort to preserve their language, they’d probably see a decline in usage faster, as that’s what isolation tends to do. Many national companies would pull out of the province and they’d see a massive decline in standard of living.

This seems doubtful. Quebec is 20%+ of our GDP and highly integrated in many areas. The equalization savings would be like the UK NHS subsidy idea. Quickly evaporated. Their language would certianly not disapear. I don't think there is any threat of that happening now but the English exodus and full control over immigration would make sure they were a very French speaking if backwater part of North America.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Hecate

In their vain effort to preserve their language, they’d probably see a decline in usage faster, as that’s what isolation tends to do.

Completely ridiculous. Reality is the opposite: isolation reinforces a language.