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  #801  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 12:25 PM
Ottawacurious Ottawacurious is offline
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I guess they want all of our feedback on what the event center should include: here's your chance!

Event centre site plan is the next step for Lansdowne 2.0
https://engage.ottawa.ca/lansdowne-2-0

10 Jun 2024

The City of Ottawa is preparing the site plan for the Lansdowne 2.0 event centre. Before the site plan is designed, we need your input on what should be included.

The event centre is just one part of Lansdowne 2.0, and designing the site plan is just the next step. For more information and background on this important City project, visit Engage Ottawa.

There will be two in-person events this summer where you can learn more about the event centre site plan and provide your input:

Tuesday, June 18, from 6:30 to 8 pm
Inside Gate 2 at TD Arena
Sunday, August 11, from 9 am to 3 pm
Lansdowne Farmers Market booth

You can also email us at lansdownerenewal@ottawa.ca

Based on the summertime feedback, a draft site plan will be published on DevApps and on Engage Ottawa. You will have one more opportunity to provide feedback on the draft plan at a public meeting on Tuesday, September 10.

The site plan is also scheduled to be reviewed by the City’s Accessibility Committee before it is finalized by staff.

As the City and its partners move ahead with a detailed design, staff will report to Council later next year on the final package of approvals, including the final construction price, final air rights value and any required funding strategy amendments prior to construction. Follow our Engage Ottawa page to stay up to date.
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  #802  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 2:11 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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From the Engage Ottawa page:
Quote:
The new event centre will accommodate nearly 4,700 general admission seats, more than 800 premium seats and standing room for 700. Seating capacity will be 5,500 for hockey games and 6,500 for concert events, with extra capacity available using retractable and flexible seating. The redesigned north side stands would see seating capacity reduced from 14,000 to 11,000, plus standing room for 900.
TD Place complex currently advertises itself as:
Quote:
TD Place offers two outstanding sports and entertainment venues. A state-of-the-art 24,000-seat outdoor stadium and a newly renovated 10,000 seat indoor arena.
So, the stadium drops from 24,000 to 21,000 (the redevelopment of the South-Side in 2013 already dropped the capacity from 28,826 to 24,000), and the arena's capacity shrinks from 10,000 (or 8,585, according to Wikipedia) to a maximum of 6,500.

Way to 'Think BIG', Ottawa.
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  #803  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 2:15 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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On an unrelated note; it is good to see that there are other volleyball fans in this crowd.

How about the excitement of that Canada - USA game? That sure got the crowd on its feet!
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  #804  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 2:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
On an unrelated note; it is good to see that there are other volleyball fans in this crowd.

How about the excitement of that Canada - USA game? That sure got the crowd on its feet!
My kid went there with his school (he's on the HS team as well with the CEGEP Griffons). He said it was awesome.
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  #805  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawacurious View Post
I guess they want all of our feedback on what the event center should include: here's your chance!
I want a unique vintage 1967 venue with 10k seats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
From the Engage Ottawa page:

TD Place complex currently advertises itself as:

So, the stadium drops from 24,000 to 21,000 (the redevelopment of the South-Side in 2013 already dropped the capacity from 28,826 to 24,000), and the arena's capacity shrinks from 10,000 (or 8,585, according to Wikipedia) to a maximum of 6,500.

Way to 'Think BIG', Ottawa.
Yeah, this is bad.

Quote:
TD Place offers two outstanding sports and entertainment venues. A state-of-the-art 24,000-seat outdoor stadium and a newly renovated 10,000 seat indoor arena.
Yet they keep saying outloud that the arena is obsolete and we're losing out on big National and International events. Meanwhile, we keep getting big National and International events.

I think we're at risk of losing events due to the venue being too small. If we don't get the Downtown arena, Ottawa will suffer from an events and tourism perspective.
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  #806  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 3:05 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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I keep thinking back to Ottawa Convention Centre. It was designed to be a modest size - following the thinking that Ottawa was a smaller market. Unfortunately, after opening, all I'd hear was that Ottawa was missing out on the bigger conventions because the Ottawa Convention Centre - now The Shaw Centre - was too small.

Some here suggested that the area vacated by Nordstom be annexed as additional convention space. I think that that is a great idea. Unfortunately, an arena doesn't have the same flexibility for growth.
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  #807  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
I keep thinking back to Ottawa Convention Centre. It was designed to be a modest size - following the thinking that Ottawa was a smaller market. Unfortunately, after opening, all I'd hear was that Ottawa was missing out on the bigger conventions because the Ottawa Convention Centre - now The Shaw Centre - was too small.

Some here suggested that the area vacated by Nordstom be annexed as additional convention space. I think that that is a great idea. Unfortunately, an arena doesn't have the same flexibility for growth.
Yeah, Quebec City, Calgary, heck even Winnipeg all have bigger convention centres. Selling ourselves short once again.
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  #808  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 3:32 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Weren't there complaints from residents on the street that connects Queen Elizabeth to Bronson?
Complaints about what, though?
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  #809  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Weren't there complaints from residents on the street that connects Queen Elizabeth to Bronson?
Who gives a shit.... The Glebe will complain no matter what is done, so just ignore them and do what's best for the city at large.
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  #810  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 4:54 PM
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Who gives a shit.... The Glebe will complain no matter what is done, so just ignore them and do what's best for the city at large.
That street isn't in the Glebe, it's in Dow's Lake.

I'm not sure that is quite the right approach to city building. You definitely need to balance the overall interests of the city against local complaints, but that's kind of what happened with Lansdowne, isn't it?

In the case of that street, in my opinion they did have a legitimate complaint when OSEG was running 100+ school buses down their short residential street for every large event. The route was adjusted to stick to arterials, which made sense, and now it works much better.
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  #811  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 5:50 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Weren't there complaints from residents on the street that connects Queen Elizabeth to Bronson?
A transit route on QED doesn't have to go on that side street, though.
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  #812  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
A transit route on QED doesn't have to go on that side street, though.
Very true.

The other issue that caused the traffic problems last weekend is that the NCC kept the QED closed, which it doesn't do for large events. Three medium-sized events happening simultaneously should be a trigger for re-opening (and, dare to dream, for running additional transit on the QED).
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  #813  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 6:16 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
A transit route on QED doesn't have to go on that side street, though.
That is the route southward though, if Bank Street is too bogged down.
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  #814  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 6:17 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
That street isn't in the Glebe, it's in Dow's Lake.

I'm not sure that is quite the right approach to city building. You definitely need to balance the overall interests of the city against local complaints, but that's kind of what happened with Lansdowne, isn't it?

In the case of that street, in my opinion they did have a legitimate complaint when OSEG was running 100+ school buses down their short residential street for every large event. The route was adjusted to stick to arterials, which made sense, and now it works much better.
Didn't they eliminate that service?
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  #815  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 6:35 PM
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Didn't they eliminate that service?
No, they still run the shuttles for big events like football games. It's part of the transportation plan.
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  #816  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2024, 7:33 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
That is the route southward though, if Bank Street is too bogged down.
Southward from where?
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  #817  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 2:38 AM
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Lansdowne 2.0 could cost $74M more than city estimate, auditor general finds
$419M price tag too 'optimistic,' says report that pegs cost closer to half a billion

Arthur White-Crummey · CBC News
Posted: Jun 20, 2024 4:49 PM EDT | Last Updated: 5 hours ago


Ottawa's auditor general says construction costs for the Lansdowne 2.0 project could be understated by more than $74 million, potentially raising the project's price tag to just short of half a billion dollars.

In the first report from a so-called "agile audit" released Thursday, the Office of the Auditor General (OAG) warns of cost escalation due to delays and says the city hadn't included a sufficient contingency fund to cover its risks.

The report also found that the city could stand to collect far less revenue than expected over the four-decade life of its partnership with Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group (OSEG), potentially cutting into money it was counting on to repay debt.

In a report to council in November, staff estimated the total cost of the redevelopment project at $419 million.

Council subsequently approved a financial model based on that number, which was meant as a rough figure that could change as the project goes to tender. Councillors will still have a chance to review an updated price tag next year.

The OAG found that the November estimate relied on solid expertise and due diligence, but was still off base. Its report hiked the projected cost of the project by 17.7 per cent to $493.4 million.

"We believe the City, in some instances, chose estimates that were on the lower end of existing ranges," the report said.

"Given the inherent risks related to construction, and this project in particular, we believe this approach has resulted in some construction estimates that are optimistic."

The report says the city did not follow its own guidelines for setting up a contingency fund that would allow it to cover cost overruns. In the OAG's view, the $51 million it set aside was about $44 million too low.

"The OAG believes that there was insufficient consideration of risk commensurate to this project when establishing their contingency amount," it said.

It said much the same thing for the cost of moving utilities for construction work, which could be understated by about $8 million.

Then there are the delays. The report noted the timelines for both the event centre and the north side stadium stands have been pushed back in the months since November. That adds to the risk of getting pricier bids when the project goes to tender.

"We believe that these delays have likely already impacted the reasonableness of estimated construction cost escalations," the report said. "Further delays would continue to compound the magnitude of this impact."

A separate cost estimate of $18.6 million to build a city parking garage at Lansdowne is also too low, according to the report, given that parking structure costs have jumped more than 12 per cent in one year.

The city was aiming to fund the $419-million cost from its November estimate through a combination of $310 million in debt and several other revenue sources, including by selling the rights to build two towers over the stands.

The auditor's report said the city will "most likely" have to take out more debt than expected if construction costs are indeed understated.

Moreover, the city was planning to pay back all that debt through the so-called "waterfall" of profits it's agreeing to split with OSEG. But the auditor's report pointed to several risk factors that could cut into the revenues those profits rely on.

"Should proforma projections associated with the partnership fall short, distributions from the waterfall will not be available to the City to support debt servicing," it said.

The report notes that revenue growth for the Ottawa Redblacks has already fallen short. It found that more conservative growth rates could cut into profits over the life of the partnership by tens of millions of dollars.

The operating cost side of the ledger is also a risk, and the auditor report views the city's guess as too optimistic, perhaps by $30 million over the course of the partnership.

Council made amendments to the staff plan when it considered the project in November, including by boosting the height of the towers and setting aside more money for affordable housing.

The OAG said its report did not factor in those adjustments.

City staff have accepted the auditor general's recommendation on updating the waterfall estimates, but disputed part of the findings on construction costs.

"There appears to be a fundamental disagreement with the basis of the finding as Management has indicated that they followed the Guide and incorporated risk into the determination of their estimates," the auditor general's office said.

"It is the OAG's perspective's that the Guide was not followed for the determination of the utilities allowance and the determination of overall contingency."

In a memo released Thursday following the OAG report, city staff insist that they did follow their own guidelines for estimating construction costs.

They note that the guidelines allow them to use a contingency on the lower end of the scale for projects with "greater certainty," and argue that Lansdowne is just that because it has been under the city's ownership since 1847.

"We remain confident that the original estimates that were presented to Council are appropriate and align to the guideline for developing them," said the memo from the city's interim general manager of planning, development and building services, Vivi Chi, and general manager of infrastructure and water services, Tammy Rose.

They say they are working to control risks and "deliver a final plan that fits within the range of the original budget estimates."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...inds-1.7241691
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  #818  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 2:17 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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lol that this is news.

Spoiler alert. Final costs will be double, at least.
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  #819  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 4:18 PM
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Lansdowne 2.0 could very well die. In typical Ottawa fashion, it's been very mismanaged.
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  #820  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Lansdowne 2.0 could very well die. In typical Ottawa fashion, it's been very mismanaged.
Because of this report? I don't see it. As auditor reports go, this is pretty much devoid of big findings. They are basically saying that the estimates are towards the low end of the acceptable range (which was already clear) and that delays could cause cost overruns (thanks for the insight)
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