AUSTIN | ABIA Updates

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by ATX2030

ABIA attempts 'unusual' use of eminent domain to force out South Terminal operator

https://www.kut.org/transportation/2...giant-frontier

By Nathan Bernier
Published May 23, 2022 at 5:01 AM CDT

Ask anyone stuck on an airplane waiting for a gate at Austin-Bergstrom International Airport (ABIA) if the Barbara Jordan Terminal is big enough, and you'll hear something like this:

"It's mind-boggling to me that Bergstrom has not grown as it's needed to. It's embarrassing," said Jon Lamb, a Florida resident who last month was stuck on an American Airlines plane after landing because no gates were available. "I was angry that now I'm going to miss an important customer call."

Officials who run the city-owned airport want to fix this problem by building more gates. A big plan in the works would add a new concourse by 2028 with at least 10 gates and the ability to expand to 40. The concourse would be connected to the Barbara Jordan Terminal by an underground pedestrian tunnel.

But there's one big obstacle: The South Terminal where ultra-low-cost airlines Allegiant and Frontier operate would have to be demolished.

It seems like there's enough land to build them a temporary terminal in a different location. I'm sure if they look at the airport map for another six minutes, they can figure it out.

[freerover]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

It seems like there's enough land to build them a temporary terminal in a different location. I'm sure if they look at the airport map for another six minutes, they can figure it out.

That is a profoundly simplistic understanding of the situation.

[Tyrone Shoes]

Originally Posted by ATCZERO

Yep. I talked to them on Friday but didn't get to see the airplane.

You'd think PIO would have someone document this event for a press release at least get someone from Airside Operations to take a photo for PIO to post on face book but there was no mention and no photograph. No mention on Facebook, no mention on Twitter and no press release. I wonder if there was even a water cannon salute. tisk-tisk

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by freerover

That is a profoundly simplistic understanding of the situation.

You are correct. Would you care to share your knowledge and give an informed and detailed answer that will help others with less impressive expertise than you understand the situation?

[the Genral]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

You are correct. Would you care to share your knowledge and give an informed and detailed answer that will help others with less impressive expertise than you understand the situation?

delete

[llintner]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoes

You'd think PIO would have someone document this event for a press release at least get someone from Airside Operations to take a photo for PIO to post on face book but there was no mention and no photograph. No mention on Facebook, no mention on Twitter and no press release. I wonder if there was even a water cannon salute. tisk-tisk

VS has started operating, but the formal launch has yet to occur. They have a media event coming up in the near future. As for a water cannon salute, those are only done at airline request.

[freerover]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

You are correct. Would you care to share your knowledge and give an informed and detailed answer that will help others with less impressive expertise than you understand the situation?

So this is a company that needs to operate at a profit.However, their offerings are budget airline service which they have a lot of due to the low cost of their gate rental. Their business plan works because the profits they make cover the debt they took on to get the South Terminal Up and running (3mil IIRC). Now, the south terminal building was already previously used as a passenger terminal. It was briefly the home of VivaAeroBus in the 2000s. It also had its own apron and is connected to the taxiway. That meant it took relatively little amount of money to get it operational for private service which this company did. It was the perfect situation of a low margin operation that needed very little up front investment.

I'm sure not an expert on all the old shitty air force buildings (many of which are being demolished in the near year or two) but it's highly unlikely a turnkey building exists that they could be moved to. Once you start needing to spend 10s-100s of millions to relocate them into a NEW building, you start to lose the point of the dead which was to add service without adding airport debt. Also, if the only option is for the public airport paying to get a new building operational for a private company...I mean why? What would we want to do that? At that point there is no advantage to having them there at all. At best, they would just financially exploit what public money built.

Also, any new location would need to fall in the FAA approved land use master plan. That's not an easy or fast change. It's also just not worth it when you can buy out the company or evict them. It would be really funny if the state court forces the airport to accommodate though.

[JACKinBeantown]

^^ Now that's a well-informed and thoughtful reply that helps forward the conversation!

One question: Why would it cost 10s-100s of millions of dollars to relocate them into a new building? I understand that there may possibly be additional tarmac to create, and of course the cost of demolition and new buildings. But that much? Metal shed/hangar buildings are relatively inexpensive per square foot. Maybe there's more to it?

[freerover]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

^^ Now that's a well-informed and thoughtful reply that helps forward the conversation!

One question: Why would it cost 10s-100s of millions of dollars to relocate them into a new building? I understand that there may possibly be additional tarmac to create, and of course the cost of demolition and new buildings. But that much? Metal shed/hangar buildings are relatively inexpensive per square foot. Maybe there's more to it?

Maybe someone in construction can speak more to the cost of similar private terminals. It's hard to get my head around the city making something that shitty.


Another problem though is it continues a decentralized operation which isn't ideal given light rail is coming to the airport and primary expansion will be centralized. That's a big deal and it'll mean the trains arrive literally in front of the future expanded BJ terminal. Having to get some of those people to the south entrance of the airport to serve a relocated south terminal is just a pain in the ass not worth dealing with and adds cost to a new south terminal project. Leverage the LRT connection and a shift to a centralized operation that expands from Barbara Jordan out to new parallel concourses is the logical solution.

[drummer]

Yeah, the city dug themselves into a big mess with that deal. I know they were desperate for a quick fix, but this is a classroom example now of what not to do when planning projects that require public funds, federal regulations, multiple international stakeholders, and increasing demand, etc., etc., etc....not to mention rising prices for construction and everything else.

[ATX2030]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoes

You'd think PIO would have someone document this event for a press release at least get someone from Airside Operations to take a photo for PIO to post on face book but there was no mention and no photograph. No mention on Facebook, no mention on Twitter and no press release. I wonder if there was even a water cannon salute. tisk-tisk

https://twitter.com/AUStinAirport/st...C-xcbm6sIqAAAA

[QUOTE=Another problem though is it continues a decentralized operation which isn't ideal given light rail is coming to the airport and primary expansion will be centralized. That's a big deal and it'll mean the trains arrive literally in front of the future expanded BJ terminal. Having to get some of those people to the south entrance of the airport to serve a relocated south terminal is just a pain in the ass not worth dealing with and adds cost to a new south terminal project. Leverage the LRT connection and a shift to a centralized operation that expands from Barbara Jordan out to new parallel concourses is the logical solution.[/QUOTE]

I'm amazed that people continue to take this "Project Connect to the Airport*" bit so seriously. It was just a PR stunt to give the average Austin voter, who has for all intents and purposes never ridden a bus or train in their lives something they could relate to. They couldn't really envision any of their peers being a regular train user, like a commuter, or using it in lieu of a car, but they could, in the hazy few moments they spent contemplating their vote, with eyes half-closed, imagine a few of the other guys in the subdivision, and a bunch of gullible out-of-towners, bopping off the train in front of the terminal with a big grin of their faces.

Reality is quite different. As far as I know, most North American airports don't have any or any realistic train service to and from their airports, and whatever bus service they have can be almost unbearable (NOLA anyone). In Montreal, I remember dragging my luggage across a swamp (some exaggeration) to finally get to the train, with a twisty up and down half-mile trudge afterwards left to get to downtown.

I have also ridden trains from the airport in Portland and from Midway and O'Hare in Chicago repeatedly. Who's on them? Well, first of all, almost no one. Of the few passengers on the trains, a few appear to be airport employees and then there's a few luggage toters like me - travelers cheap almost to the point of mental illness.

Austin had a bus that would take you from right smack in front of the terminal to right smack downtown for a lousy dollar. How many passengers on that bus, not counting me, the few times I've been on it? If you guessed zero, you wouldn't be far off.

There's another bus that runs from the airport up the transit-friendly Airport Blvd. corridor. Rightfully but also unfortunately for a lot of travelers, it make an interminable stop at Riverside ACC. Again, starting at the airport - about zero.

But now, thinking magically, we expect hordes of out-of-town waifs to flock to the choo-choo. Well, it got our vote. It will only cost another extra few hundred million to build it.

Not to say that if, a handful of days throughout the year, COA spent a small fortune promoting "Express Festival Runs," from the airport directly to downtown (and perhaps had some shuttle buses at the end) they couldn't gin up some decent ridership on those few days. But the equity people might put the kibosh on skipping the stops for the unwashed, and I would agree with them.

* I am already on record that PC will never be completed, at least anywhere near as envisioned.

[freerover]

Originally Posted by smallfrie

I'm amazed that people continue to take this "Project Connect to the Airport*" bit so seriously. It was just a PR stunt to give the average Austin voter, who has for all intents and purposes never ridden a bus or train in their lives something they could relate to. They couldn't really envision any of their peers being a regular train user, like a commuter, or using it in lieu of a car, but they could, in the hazy few moments they spent contemplating their vote, with eyes half-closed, imagine a few of the other guys in the subdivision, and a bunch of gullible out-of-towners, bopping off the train in front of the terminal with a big grin of their faces.

Reality is quite different. As far as I know, most North American airports don't have any or any realistic train service to and from their airports, and whatever bus service they have can be almost unbearable (NOLA anyone). In Montreal, I remember dragging my luggage across a swamp (some exaggeration) to finally get to the train, with a twisty up and down half-mile trudge afterwards left to get to downtown.

I have also ridden trains from the airport in Portland and from Midway and O'Hare in Chicago repeatedly. Who's on them? Well, first of all, almost no one. Of the few passengers on the trains, a few appear to be airport employees and then there's a few luggage toters like me - travelers cheap almost to the point of mental illness.

Austin had a bus that would take you from right smack in front of the terminal to right smack downtown for a lousy dollar. How many passengers on that bus, not counting me, the few times I've been on it? If you guessed zero, you wouldn't be far off.

There's another bus that runs from the airport up the transit-friendly Airport Blvd. corridor. Rightfully but also unfortunately for a lot of travelers, it make an interminable stop at Riverside ACC. Again, starting at the airport - about zero.

But now, thinking magically, we expect hordes of out-of-town waifs to flock to the choo-choo. Well, it got our vote. It will only cost another extra few hundred million to build it.

Not to say that if, a handful of days throughout the year, COA spent a small fortune promoting "Express Festival Runs," from the airport directly to downtown (and perhaps had some shuttle buses at the end) they couldn't gin up some decent ridership on those few days. But the equity people might put the kibosh on skipping the stops for the unwashed, and I would agree with them.

* I am already on record that PC will never be completed, at least anywhere near as envisioned.

1) Yes rail to the airport is politically popular and primarily NEEDED by airports with a large workforce which doesn't currently include AUS.

2) Regardless of why it goes to the airport, people are still going to use it and they are going to use it more than the bus. People are comfortable with trains, they don't sit in traffic and you don't have to deal with getting a cab. I've used the train when visiting for business at other airports. A lot of people will use the train at AUS especially when the new terminal opens and the train station is literally in front of the main entrance.


I'm really unsure what your point is.

[drummer]

I frequently rode the train to the airport in Asia in multiple cities, as well as in Europe - though there were different setups for mass transit. I have also ridden DART (train + bus) to Love Field and to DFW airport. Both were relatively simple, though I would rather Love have a direct connection to the rail. In Asia, Europe, and Dallas - I was far from the only one. I've done the same in San Francisco and it was a packed train all the way. Same with Newark and JFK for trips to NYC.

The reality is the most regular riders of rail to airports are workers. After them come frequent business travelers, tourists (esp. without kids), convention participants of various flavors, etc. Entire families from the suburbs going on holiday aren't necessarily the intended target rider given that they're lugging around bags, strollers, kids, etc. That said, you go to many places on the East Coast and I've seen it. I've taken my kids all over the world and we rode mass transit of various forms in almost every instance.

Can it happen in Austin? Will it happen in Austin? I think yes, but the Red Line isn't the best study case in and of itself. Project Connect as a whole will happen - it will probably be late and over budget, but it will happen. It may look slightly different in some areas, but it will happen.

Regarding the airport connection - yes, I think that will happen also.

[freerover]

Originally Posted by drummer

I frequently rode the train to the airport in Asia in multiple cities, as well as in Europe - though there were different setups for mass transit. I have also ridden DART (train + bus) to Love Field and to DFW airport. Both were relatively simple, though I would rather Love have a direct connection to the rail. In Asia, Europe, and Dallas - I was far from the only one. I've done the same in San Francisco and it was a packed train all the way. Same with Newark and JFK for trips to NYC.

The reality is the most regular riders of rail to airports are workers. After them come frequent business travelers, tourists (esp. without kids), convention participants of various flavors, etc. Entire families from the suburbs going on holiday aren't necessarily the intended target rider given that they're lugging around bags, strollers, kids, etc. That said, you go to many places on the East Coast and I've seen it. I've taken my kids all over the world and we rode mass transit of various forms in almost every instance.

Can it happen in Austin? Will it happen in Austin? I think yes, but the Red Line isn't the best study case in and of itself. Project Connect as a whole will happen - it will probably be late and over budget, but it will happen. It may look slightly different in some areas, but it will happen.

Regarding the airport connection - yes, I think that will happen also.

Business travelers yes but also tourists staying downtown.

Given the only place to put the maintenance facility is north of 71 on the other side of the airport, it seems extremely unlikely that the airport won't be in phase 1.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by smallfrie

I'm amazed that people continue to take this "Project Connect to the Airport*" bit so seriously. It was just a PR stunt to give the average Austin voter, who has for all intents and purposes never ridden a bus or train in their lives something they could relate to. They couldn't really envision any of their peers being a regular train user, like a commuter, or using it in lieu of a car, but they could, in the hazy few moments they spent contemplating their vote, with eyes half-closed, imagine a few of the other guys in the subdivision, and a bunch of gullible out-of-towners, bopping off the train in front of the terminal with a big grin of their faces.

Reality is quite different. As far as I know, most North American airports don't have any or any realistic train service to and from their airports, and whatever bus service they have can be almost unbearable (NOLA anyone). In Montreal, I remember dragging my luggage across a swamp (some exaggeration) to finally get to the train, with a twisty up and down half-mile trudge afterwards left to get to downtown.

The vast majority of the top 15 US airports have rail service, and many of the outliers are in the process of adding it.

But a smaller metro with no rail at all, of course that non-existent system isn't going to serve the airport.

Originally Posted by smallfrie

I have also ridden trains from the airport in Portland and from Midway and O'Hare in Chicago repeatedly. Who's on them? Well, first of all, almost no one. Of the few passengers on the trains, a few appear to be airport employees and then there's a few luggage toters like me - travelers cheap almost to the point of mental illness.

Austin had a bus that would take you from right smack in front of the terminal to right smack downtown for a lousy dollar. How many passengers on that bus, not counting me, the few times I've been on it? If you guessed zero, you wouldn't be far off.

People didn't want to take a bus that's stuck in traffic to get downtown, then be without a car in a city without a modern transit system. shocking, absolutely shocking.

airport service is complementary to the rest of the system. Once you can get around more of the rest of the city on transit, the ride from the airport makes more sense.

But even then, flyers aren't the primary audience (as you almost seem to realize). It's serving the airport as a major employment center.

But most airport employees don't work downtown. So the airport service needs to tie into a comprehensive system so that workers can actually get to/from where they live.

Originally Posted by smallfrie

There's another bus that runs from the airport up the transit-friendly Airport Blvd. corridor. Rightfully but also unfortunately for a lot of travelers, it make an interminable stop at Riverside ACC. Again, starting at the airport - about zero.

That's the first time in my life I've ever seen the words "transit-friendly Airport Blvd. corridor".

Have you ever been on Airport Blvd? A road with buses stuck in traffic, running along car-dependent strip malls and low density housing is about as far from "transit-friendly" as you can get.

Originally Posted by smallfrie

But now, thinking magically, we expect hordes of out-of-town waifs to flock to the choo-choo. Well, it got our vote. It will only cost another extra few hundred million to build it.

Nothing magical about it. More people take high quality service than take low quality service. That's not magic.

And no, it's not a choo-choo train. It's electric, not steam.

Originally Posted by smallfrie

Not to say that if, a handful of days throughout the year, COA spent a small fortune promoting "Express Festival Runs," from the airport directly to downtown (and perhaps had some shuttle buses at the end) they couldn't gin up some decent ridership on those few days. But the equity people might put the kibosh on skipping the stops for the unwashed, and I would agree with them.

* I am already on record that PC will never be completed, at least anywhere near as envisioned.

The ride from airport to downtown isn't long enough and doesn't have enough intermediate stops to make express trips worthwhile. At most you'd save a couple minutes in stops.

I can't argue or debate everyone who responded on every item I raised.

My larger point is that there is a tremendous amount of magical thinking regarding all aspects of Project Connect and that the airport extension was strictly PR. Necessary maybe for the approval but still strictly PR.

I can only speak to my experiences in Portland, Montreal and the two Chicago airports, as well as extrapolate from the two ABIA bus routes. I will say that I googled transit to the three NYC airports before writing my piece and as far as I recall none of those airports has a direct train line from the terminals to NYC, and the impression I got was that schlepping around would be a real PITA.

Dallas, SF - maybe trains go to the terminals there and it's all great there, I don't know.

There will be riders on the train when Project Connect makes out out there? More than ride on the buses. More airport workers and more of the pathologically cheap travelers. Several hundred millions of dollars more worth? I doubt it. That's a lot of money that could have been put to better use elsewhere for more people that truly need it. According to the Austin Monitor, the bus system now is really messed up for people who need it for all aspects of their lives, not just to get to work at ABIA.

Project Connect's construction estimate rose 75% from 15% to 30% design. Supposedly there was a forty per cent contingency in the original estimate (roughly 2.4 billion dollars). Was all 2.4 billion contingency subsumed in the new estimate, leaving no contingency? Or does the new estimate retain the 2.4 billion contingency or has it maybe been raised up to over 4 billion, to keep the same percentage? Maybe someone here can let us know. Whatever the case about the contingency may be, the whole estimate snafu is embarrassing to anyone who has even glanced to PC's justifications. I suspect the original estimate was just more PR.

PC doesn't have a boss now, just an interim boss. Anyone want to bet what the first thing the new permanent boss does, even if the interim boss gets the job, and no matter what he/she swears under oath to? Yes, conduct a roughly year long review of all aspects of PC, from stem to stern; and consultants will be needed. That's just a fact of life - they wouldn't be the person hired if they didn't have it in them to conduct the review.

As far as Airport Blvd. corridor being transit friendly, I meant there are many people living along it who need and use mass transit, but yes, in context the comment was off-topic and dumb.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by freerover

Business travelers yes but also tourists staying downtown.

Yeah, for sure - I mentioned tourists without kids after business travelers. Especially for SXSW, ACL, and other large events, but also regular tourists who come to town outside of those times.

Originally Posted by smallfrie

I can't argue or debate everyone who responded on every item I raised.

My larger point is that there is a tremendous amount of magical thinking regarding all aspects of Project Connect and that the airport extension was strictly PR. Necessary maybe for the approval but still strictly PR.

I can only speak to my experiences in Portland, Montreal and the two Chicago airports, as well as extrapolate from the two ABIA bus routes. I will say that I googled transit to the three NYC airports before writing my piece and as far as I recall none of those airports has a direct train line from the terminals to NYC, and the impression I got was that schlepping around would be a real PITA.

Dallas, SF - maybe trains go to the terminals there and it's all great there, I don't know.

There will be riders on the train when Project Connect makes out out there? More than ride on the buses. More airport workers and more of the pathologically cheap travelers. Several hundred millions of dollars more worth? I doubt it. That's a lot of money that could have been put to better use elsewhere for more people that truly need it. According to the Austin Monitor, the bus system now is really messed up for people who need it for all aspects of their lives, not just to get to work at ABIA.

Project Connect's construction estimate rose 75% from 15% to 30% design. Supposedly there was a forty per cent contingency in the original estimate (roughly 2.4 billion dollars). Was all 2.4 billion contingency subsumed in the new estimate, leaving no contingency? Or does the new estimate retain the 2.4 billion contingency or has it maybe been raised up to over 4 billion, to keep the same percentage? Maybe someone here can let us know. Whatever the case about the contingency may be, the whole estimate snafu is embarrassing to anyone who has even glanced to PC's justifications. I suspect the original estimate was just more PR.

PC doesn't have a boss now, just an interim boss. Anyone want to bet what the first thing the new permanent boss does, even if the interim boss gets the job, and no matter what he/she swears under oath to? Yes, conduct a roughly year long review of all aspects of PC, from stem to stern; and consultants will be needed. That's just a fact of life - they wouldn't be the person hired if they didn't have it in them to conduct the review.

As far as Airport Blvd. corridor being transit friendly, I meant there are many people living along it who need and use mass transit, but yes, in context the comment was off-topic and dumb.

Couple of thoughts. Of course aspects of it are PR because they were trying to get votes - but in this case, it was also needed and planned to actually happen, which is why it was so heavily communicated.

Re: direct connects - both Newark and JFK have secondary rail connections to stops along other rail lines. Not ideal, really, but not that difficult to navigate if you don't have 18 pieces of luggage. It's been years since I flew out of LaGuardia but I do recall that one being a bit of a pain.

Re: ridership, yes there is demand and yes there will be riders. These routes go through more densely populated areas in general. That's a topic for the transportation subforum, however, not the airport. There will be riders to the airport.

Re: a boss - yes, the boss will likely need to get up to speed, but this is a major plan that was approved through an election and is in motion. They're going to hire someone who can execute that plan. As I mentioned, there will be some changes as there are with literally every project from a major transit system to painting a room in your house, but it's progressing forward nonetheless and they'll want to hire with that in mind.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by smallfrie

There will be riders on the train when Project Connect makes out out there? More than ride on the buses. More airport workers and more of the pathologically cheap travelers. Several hundred millions of dollars more worth? I doubt it. That's a lot of money that could have been put to better use elsewhere for more people that truly need it. According to the Austin Monitor, the bus system now is really messed up for people who need it for all aspects of their lives, not just to get to work at ABIA.

What several hundred million dollars? As noted by freerover, the maintenance facility already had to be a mile away. A mile of surface only rail isn't "several hundred million dollars".
It isn't free, but to go all that way and then not serve the largest concentrated employment center in SE Austin would be silly.

Originally Posted by smallfrie

Project Connect's construction estimate rose 75% from 15% to 30% design.

Because they _tripled_ the length of the tunnel. Not because of running to the airport.

Originally Posted by smallfrie

Supposedly there was a forty per cent contingency in the original estimate (roughly 2.4 billion dollars). Was all 2.4 billion contingency subsumed in the new estimate, leaving no contingency? Or does the new estimate retain the 2.4 billion contingency or has it maybe been raised up to over 4 billion, to keep the same percentage?

https://publicinput.com/Customer/Fil...d-7623cb72e7f4

They kept the contingency and increased the annual inflation rate to 5% (so the new estimates cover years worth of significant inflation).

Originally Posted by smallfrie

Maybe someone here can let us know. Whatever the case about the contingency may be, the whole estimate snafu is embarrassing to anyone who has even glanced to PC's justifications. I suspect the original estimate was just more PR.

They explicitly had that estimate checked by APTA. Far from PR. It just wasn't set up for the first real inflation we've had in 40 years. Plus a massive increase in scope (tunnel length)

[chinchaaa]

Originally Posted by smallfrie

I can only speak to my experiences in Portland, Montreal and the two Chicago airports, as well as extrapolate from the two ABIA bus routes. I will say that I googled transit to the three NYC airports before writing my piece

then maybe stop speaking like you're some kind of researched and informed authority on this subject.

Originally Posted by smallfrie

as far as I recall none of those airports has a direct train line from the terminals to NYC, and the impression I got was that schlepping around would be a real PITA.

actually, millions of people ride the train just to JFK every year. i literally did it myself last weekend on my way back to Austin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTrain_JFK