Canadian Retail Thread

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by savevp

We're twelve hours away from the potential LCBO strike in Ontario and the lasting consequences it may have for the province's rapidly changing alcohol sector. Memories of Alberta ditching its monopoly system under similar circumstances...

https://winesinniagara.com/2024/06/w...for-vqa-wines/

Good riddances to get rid of the LCBO. It's an archaic holdover from the end of prohibition. Let the private sector sell liquor. It's been successful in Alberta and Saskatchewan, which got rid of their government stores entirely; and in provinces such as BC which has a very large private sector retail component in addition to government stores.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by savevp

We're twelve hours away from the potential LCBO strike in Ontario and the lasting consequences it may have for the province's rapidly changing alcohol sector. Memories of Alberta ditching its monopoly system under similar circumstances...

https://winesinniagara.com/2024/06/w...for-vqa-wines/

It's still an incredible waste of money but Ford's decision to accelerate the launch of wine and beer sales in covenience stores makes more sense. Monopolized alchohol makes little sense but it's ridiculous we are giving away the huge profit centre the government has developed for nothing. Privatizing it piecemeal could have brought in billions.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Excellent! On the other hand, $6 for a scoop of icecream? Bloody 'ell, as tiktok would have it.

Isn't that a normal price? I don't eat much icecream.


Had my last here in Halliburton 2 weeks ago, soft serve dipped, it was about $6 I think for a medium.

[IMG]20240614_122447 by Andrew Moore, on Flickr[/IMG]

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Excellent! On the other hand, $6 for a scoop of icecream? Bloody 'ell, as tiktok would have it.

that's a pretty typical price around here for ice cream.

[kwoldtimer]

https://www.tiktok.com/@ladbible/vid...223904?lang=en

[SpongeG]

yeah I saw that, hillarious. Luckily or unluckily for me I can't have ice cream due to lactose issues, but once in a while i get the ice cream at costco concession for under $3 if I am going to stay home for the night lol.

[casper]

Originally Posted by savevp

We're twelve hours away from the potential LCBO strike in Ontario and the lasting consequences it may have for the province's rapidly changing alcohol sector. Memories of Alberta ditching its monopoly system under similar circumstances...

https://winesinniagara.com/2024/06/w...for-vqa-wines/

In BC until COVID there was a requirement that all wine and spirits would go through the BC liquor distribution branch warehouse/distribution centres. That imposed a monopoly even for private stores. During COVID that requirement was removed for product produced in province. Not certain if the out-of-province and out-of-country product still has to pass through LDB warehouses or not. Not certain how that works in Ontario.

If the LCBO and its union are not going to be customer focused, then the best thing is to let the private sector step in and fill that void.

[WhipperSnapper]

What is $6 nowadays?

$6 bucks for soft serve for the same price as a premium blended ice cream?

[savevp]

Originally Posted by casper

In BC until COVID there was a requirement that all wine and spirits would go through the BC liquor distribution branch warehouse/distribution centres. That imposed a monopoly even for private stores. During COVID that requirement was removed for product produced in province. Not certain if the out-of-province and out-of-country product still has to pass through LDB warehouses or not. Not certain how that works in Ontario.

If the LCBO and its union are not going to be customer focused, then the best thing is to let the private sector step in and fill that void.

I believe private retailers and restos can order directly from Ontario producers but all out of province alcohol goes through the LCBO warehouse. So if this strike wears on, we may see huge benefits for the local drinks sector at the expense of imports.

Not like the LCBO were 'importing' very much at all from other provinces. I haven't been able to find a BC wine at my local LC in months. I hope the strike never ends; good riddance to bad rubbish.

[WhipperSnapper]

The LCBO is a cash cow for taxpayers. I'm a little confused with the interest to give it away to an asset manager.

Monopolies? Everything is a monopoly or oligopoly in Canada. That will continue selling it for a one time payout. I just don't personally see a top ticket price selling pieces of it to competitors.

[savevp]

The LCBO strike is the result of Ontario opening up the market. Its patently absurd that there should still be a government monopoly on liquor in 2024, particularly since we have an open market for marijuana.

The LCBO offer an extremely limited selection, they are massively detrimental to the Ontario wine and spirits industry, and they offer an inferior product to provinces with private sales. I should think thousands of new tax paying retailers would help offset the loss in LCBO dividends to the province.

I frequent one of these new bottle shops, a place called Archives in St Catharines. They stock almost exclusively small Niagara wineries who could never have succeeded before the LCBO monopoly started breaking up during Covid. I'm sure both the independent bottle shops and non-corporate producers are thrilled at this strike.

[jonny24]

I'm curious why the LCBO workers think anyone will back up their monopoly position.

I don't blamed them for attempting to defend their fiefdom, that's rational, but I'm confused who they think will be on their side. Seems only likely to make enemies.

[TorontoDrew]

I actually like the LCBO, the only thing I would change is the hours should be longer. The staff for the most part are very knowledgeable about the products they have. The beer store on the other hand, if it's not one of the larger locations with the walk-in fridge suck. they all used to have a wall with all the beer brands and prices but know you are expected to scroll through a tablet to find the beer you want. Whoever thought that was a good idea should be fired.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by savevp

The LCBO strike is the result of Ontario opening up the market. Its patently absurd that there should still be a government monopoly on liquor in 2024, particularly since we have an open market for marijuana.

The LCBO offer an extremely limited selection, they are massively detrimental to the Ontario wine and spirits industry, and they offer an inferior product to provinces with private sales. I should think thousands of new tax paying retailers would help offset the loss in LCBO dividends to the province.

I frequent one of these new bottle shops, a place called Archives in St Catharines. They stock almost exclusively small Niagara wineries who could never have succeeded before the LCBO monopoly started breaking up during Covid. I'm sure both the independent bottle shops and non-corporate producers are thrilled at this strike.

I'm not sure you understand how alcohol distribution works in Canada - all Alberta alcohol sales for instance have to go through the ALGC and distributed through a designated distributor. Low costs for certain macro products has more to do with taxation than the model itself, and a visit to any specialty liquor store in Alberta illustrates that higher end niche products tend to be more expensive. Dependent on the specifics this model can actually be more onerous to independent producers, particularly in how distribution is handled. Ontario is actually pretty decent on this front as breweries/wineries can distribute directly to bars/restaurants and ship directly to consumers - unlike for instance the US which mandates craft beer at least to go through a few very large distribution entities. The biggest issues have more to do with sales prices as they are not allowed to offer significant discounts on direct sales (VQA wineries have some ability to do this). While getting your product into the LCBO can be a process, none of the people I know working in craft beer or wine have much of an issue with them as they handle the rest of the process pretty well.

The shift in Ontario that's occurring under Doug would see the LCBO remain as the primary distributor in the Province (as is the case with cannabis which is NOT an open market). To achieve lower end costs taxation on products will have to be cut - right now a bottleshop essentially purchases at the same cost from the LCBO a consumer would. Hence why they tend to only carry products that aren't available in the LCBO, and like to purchase directly from wineries/breweries/distilleries (sometimes receiving discounts of questionable legality). Right now grocery stores sell at the same cost as the LCBO but also purchase for only slightly less - it's a loss-leader for these stores hence why some in higher theft locales have stopped carrying beer/wine.

I'm all for reduced taxation / wholesale pricing for independent retailers - particularly on Ontario products - but this will result in a reduction of revenue for the Province. This will vary dependent on how the tax model shakes out but all projections have identified a lower revenue going forward. And of course a massive bill for not waiting a year for the master framework to expire.

Without going into much detail I've been somewhat privy to the goings-on related to the cancellation of the master framework and de-regulation of alcohol sales. Good riddance to the Beer Store but the same conglomerates involved in that entity will still very much be involved in how alcohol is distributed and sold in Ontario. Potentially to the detriment of local producers, particularly those that are middle-sized - basically too big to be a niche product and not big enough to have a seat at the table. People I know in the craft industry are in panic mode as this was done so quickly and with zero consultation it will be very difficult to get their product in any non-niche store. Probably good news if your main purchase is a 2-4 of macro beer though.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by savevp

The LCBO strike is the result of Ontario opening up the market. Its patently absurd that there should still be a government monopoly on liquor in 2024, particularly since we have an open market for marijuana.

The LCBO offer an extremely limited selection, they are massively detrimental to the Ontario wine and spirits industry, and they offer an inferior product to provinces with private sales. I should think thousands of new tax paying retailers would help offset the loss in LCBO dividends to the province.

I frequent one of these new bottle shops, a place called Archives in St Catharines. They stock almost exclusively small Niagara wineries who could never have succeeded before the LCBO monopoly started breaking up during Covid. I'm sure both the independent bottle shops and non-corporate producers are thrilled at this strike.

A monopoly on alchohol is weird in 2024 and the LCBO employeess are absolutely overpaid but the rest is just wrong. It is beneficial to local producers. Especially wine. The EU regularily complains about it's unfair advanatge. How would handing a profitable business to private industry for free be anything like an offest.

If we auctioned off licenses to supermarkets in 2018 we would have had a windfall on par with the cellular spectrum auctions. They would have bid probably well beyond what the value was as being the supermarket with a license would bring in so many customers they wouldn't want to be left out. Instead dribs and drabs of idealogical death by a thousand cuts.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Good riddances to get rid of the LCBO. It's an archaic holdover from the end of prohibition. Let the private sector sell liquor. It's been successful in Alberta and Saskatchewan, which got rid of their government stores entirely; and in provinces such as BC which has a very large private sector retail component in addition to government stores.

The LCBO is getting harder to defend. The primary reasons for defending it are that it's a cash cow for the government and that it pays its workers a decent living. Those are great things, but they're not the reason why we should have a publicly-owned liquor monopoly.

The reason we have publicly-owned companies is to provide services that the private market can't deliver because it would result in market failure or can't deliver in the public interest. I think it's pretty clear that the distribution and sale of liquor is something the private market can deliver efficiently everywhere else, so there goes argument 1. Argument 2 is that a public liquor store can gatekeep the evils of alcohol, but I frankly don't really see it.

Up until recently, a sort of weak case could be made that the LCBO provides a diverse selection of products - especially in smaller markets that wouldn't normally support this through private liquor stores. A few things have happened:

- the first is online shopping. You should be able to buy rare bottles from your home wherever you live.
- the second is the rise in independent craft breweries, wineries and distillers and the fact that the LCBO won't stock them unless they can guarantee a minimum run that exceeds what they can produce.
- and, finally, the LCBO has become more monotonous in its selection in the last 10 years, especially for wine. It used to be that if a Vintages section could stock 1,000 bottles of wine (let's say for argument), then they'd stock 10 bottles each of 100 different wines. Nowadays it's more like 20 bottles of 50 different wines.

[Wigs]

I lived in Alberta. Majority of Retail market share was held by a handful of conglomerates.
Prices on many products were actually higher than LCBO.

For the non chain option stores, there's a number of dusty bodega looking liquor stores in Calgary. You had to ask around to figure out which stores to go to in each quadrant of Calgary.

In the pro LCBO column, for Ontarians you can go to any town in the province from Kenora to Kingston and know you can find a decent selection of liquor, wine and beer/coolers at the same pricing you're accustomed to with actual knowledgeable staff. I understand the hours in smaller population centres aren't great but in most situations it's not difficult to plan ahead.

It provides thousands of livable wage jobs. Also it's a cash cow for the province.

From their latest annual report



Despite gripes I'm pro LCBO

[jonny24]

The LCBO can continue to exist and continue to employ those people.

They just shouldn't get a say in allowing others to try to compete with them.

The government can continue to collect alcohol taxes from wherever it is sold. I don't see how they are entitled to more revenue than that, just because they are used to it.

[WhipperSnapper]

"They" represent taxpayers, no?

Unionized public workers or, more concerning, unionized public workers making up a disproportional amount of Canada's wage growth is another matter.


Our charter banks are grossly protected by the Feds from outside competition. They constantly make record profit overcharging Canadians, outsourcing jobs internationally or layoffs below the publication limit in order to hire imported contract workers for less. "They" or their sweat-heart deal with Canadians is never discussed. It's always the LCBO.

[savevp]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Our charter banks are grossly protected by the Feds from outside competition. They constantly make record profit overcharging Canadians, outsourcing jobs internationally or layoffs below the publication limit in order to hire imported contract workers for less. "They" or their sweat-heart deal with Canadians is never discussed. It's always the LCBO.

I could start a bank tomorrow if I was properly capitalised and didn't seem likely to lose my customers' money. I can open a marijuana shop tomorrow. I can open a licenced gun retailer. But I can't open a proper liquor store in Ontario. That's the difference. It is utterly absurd and this strike should be the death knell for the system. BC has shown a government-private model can exist in harmony.