Highways in Canada

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by le calmar

You would have to be pretty clueless to not realize you've been driving on the wrong highway for 2 hours. But I must admit, quite a few people I know have a bad sense of orientation and don't know much about geography. I would not be surprised if they made that mistake without a GPS.

I know too many people in my life who have no spatial or geographic awareness whatsoever, including driving in the wrong direction for two hours.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by le calmar

You would have to be pretty clueless to not realize you've been driving on the wrong highway for 2 hours. But I must admit, quite a few people I know have a bad sense of orientation and don't know much about geography. I would not be surprised if they made that mistake without a GPS.

I find telling people that a building or property is on the NW corner of Street A/Street B often results in a blank look.

A GPS enables poor knowledge of the geography of your surroundings to continue.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

I find telling people that a building or property is on the NW corner of Street A/Street B often results in a blank look.

A GPS enables poor knowledge of the geography of your surroundings to continue.

IMO in places like KW where road network’s radial, it’s understandable. In grid-like places, it’s inexcusable.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am a fan of high speed ramps. I should not have to slow down when going from one to the other. It is interesting that an older road in Sudbury, the Lasalle extension when it meets old 144/Elm going west to north, for passenger vehicles, the ramp can be taken at speed. The ramp speed is 70km/hr and the speed of both roads is 80 km/hr.

Much of the old ramps of the 400 series highways were full cloverleafs. While that gets everyone where they are needing to go, it adds weaving and short acceleration/deceleration to the mess. Newer interchanges have lights. Some have roundabouts.

It is interesting how we have many intersecting 400 series highways, yet so few are built to stay at the highway speed. The 4 stacks are cool and should be put where 2 highways intersect.

The ramps should be built at the speed that is at the end of it.

A lot of it reflects the era they were designed in - mostly the 1950s through the 1970s. High speed interchanges are a more modern idea - something like the 401/403/410 or the 407/400 interchanges come to mind, both of which are 1990s-2010s designs.

The problem with modernizing them is twofold:
1. The right-of-way may not accommodate a high speed interchange
2. Even if there is the land, it is a very complex task to keep a highway moving while building a completely new interchange on top of it. The Turcot Interchange in Montreal is an example I like to use as an example.

There aren't many cloverleafs on the 400-series highways anymore - they've mostly been turned into parclos. The last one I can think of was the 400 at Simcoe Rd. 88, but there might be a few in Eastern Ontario on the 401.

Re: the Lasalle extension and Elm/144 interchange - it's mostly a high-speed one, except for the southbound 144 to Lasalle loop. I mean, I like to do the 270 degree corkscrew ambitiously, but I'm pretty sure any passengers would be less thrilled.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I agree to some extent. For example, I really hate that loop from 404 South to 401 East. Ditto for 407 East to 404 North. If anything, other than with 403 and 410, 407 should meet every other major freeways (427, 400, 404 and possibly a northerly extension of 412) with stack interchanges.

For 69/17 in the future, while I understand the geographical constraint (rocks everywhere), I think a loop from 69 North to 17 West is a mistake: It should be a flyover instead due to the sheer number of trucks.

The 401 is challenging because of the express-collector setup too. If you're a glass-half empty person, just remember, if that loop ramp is posted at 30km/h, the 401 often is going that slowly, so you'll be at the perfect merging speed.

It isn't a loop ramp, but I dislike the 400S to 401W interchange - it dumps all of the traffic onto the Collector lanes of the 401W only, instead of providing direct access to the Express lanes. Bonus points: you're blind to oncoming traffic and then you have to deal with people trying to exit at Weston Rd.

Then there's the 427 interchange...ugh.

Re: 69/17. I don't think the volume level really requires high-speed flyovers. Actually, there's not even that many trucks - many transports are headed to Sudbury itself.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

If you're a glass-half empty person, just remember, if that loop ramp is posted at 30km/h, the 401 often is going that slowly, so you'll be at the perfect merging speed.

This is very true. At least thankfully, so far, whenever I've done negotiating that loop, the split second I get down to the 401, there are no cars flying by.

Originally Posted by wave46

It isn't a loop ramp, but I dislike the 400S to 401W interchange - it dumps all of the traffic onto the Collector lanes of the 401W only, instead of providing direct access to the Express lanes. Bonus points: you're blind to oncoming traffic and then you have to deal with people trying to exit at Weston Rd.

I don't quite get the part about oncoming traffic, but definitely agree with the part about people wanting to exit onto Weston Road.

Originally Posted by wave46

Then there's the 427 interchange...ugh.

The entire 409 should simply be treated as the collector lanes of 401.

Originally Posted by wave46

Re: 69/17. I don't think the volume level really requires high-speed flyovers. Actually, there's not even that many trucks - many transports are headed to Sudbury itself.

So they mostly use Regent Street? Otherwise, that means they need to use the Bypass and, in that case, we really are opening another can of worms...

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I don't quite get the part about oncoming traffic, but definitely agree with the part about people wanting to exit onto Weston Road.

Oh, what I mean is that I like to pick out a gap in traffic into which I plan to go as I'm merging. The sightlines aren't great as there's a structure in the way that obscures the traffic on the 401.

If you're going from the 400S to the 401E, you have a high vantage point to plan things in advance, provided the 401 is actually moving.

So they mostly use Regent Street? Otherwise, that means they need to use the Bypass and, in that case, we really are opening another can of worms...

Unless the transports are going somewhere around the eastern or western edges of the city, generally through town is the most direct route.

The transports on 69 tend to have either Sudbury or the Sault as their final terminus as you'd never really want to take a rig up 17 past the Sault if you were going across the country. If the transports are going to the Sault direct, they often go through the US - enjoying a nice 4-lane highway all the way there.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wave46

A lot of it reflects the era they were designed in - mostly the 1950s through the 1970s. High speed interchanges are a more modern idea - something like the 401/403/410 or the 407/400 interchanges come to mind, both of which are 1990s-2010s designs.

The problem with modernizing them is twofold:
1. The right-of-way may not accommodate a high speed interchange
2. Even if there is the land, it is a very complex task to keep a highway moving while building a completely new interchange on top of it. The Turcot Interchange in Montreal is an example I like to use as an example.

There aren't many cloverleafs on the 400-series highways anymore - they've mostly been turned into parclos. The last one I can think of was the 400 at Simcoe Rd. 88, but there might be a few in Eastern Ontario on the 401.

88 is not, as they took out the ramp on the opposite side of both bridges. With the widening project for the 400, that interchange will be closed and rebuilt. It looks like when they are done it might be up to 6 lanes a side.

Originally Posted by wave46

Re: the Lasalle extension and Elm/144 interchange - it's mostly a high-speed one, except for the southbound 144 to Lasalle loop. I mean, I like to do the 270 degree corkscrew ambitiously, but I'm pretty sure any passengers would be less thrilled.

The Lasalle to Elm south isn't much better. I know with the Maley Drive extension Phase 2, it will be widened to there, but I doubt much ore than resurfacing there will happen.

Originally Posted by wave46

The 401 is challenging because of the express-collector setup too. If you're a glass-half empty person, just remember, if that loop ramp is posted at 30km/h, the 401 often is going that slowly, so you'll be at the perfect merging speed.

But when it is moving, it is annoying to have to speed up just after breaking. Mind you, at least it is not like how Quebec does their ramps....

[QUOTE=wave46;8796048
It isn't a loop ramp, but I dislike the 400S to 401W interchange - it dumps all of the traffic onto the Collector lanes of the 401W only, instead of providing direct access to the Express lanes. Bonus points: you're blind to oncoming traffic and then you have to deal with people trying to exit at Weston Rd.[/QUOTE]

All 400 series highways that touch the 401 in the collector/express sections should have on and off ramps to both the collector and express. This is resolved mainly with the 404/DVP.

[QUOTE=wave46;8796048
Then there's the 427 interchange...ugh. [/QUOTE]

From a highway with collector/express to a highway with collector/express.... This is one area they should close off and start from scratch.

Originally Posted by wave46

Re: 69/17. I don't think the volume level really requires high-speed flyovers. Actually, there's not even that many trucks - many transports are headed to Sudbury itself.

Not true. Man of them are headed west because they are new drivers who see that it is slightly shorter. Seasoned drivers know better.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

The entire 409 should simply be treated as the collector lanes of 401.

Thee western end is nearly 4km away from the 401. Leave it as is. It sserves the purpose of being a direct highway in and out of the airport.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

So they mostly use Regent Street? Otherwise, that means they need to use the Bypass and, in that case, we really are opening another can of worms...

They don't, but with the way he was saying it, he thinks they do. They do use the bypass to get to the nearest road to their destination.

Originally Posted by wave46

Oh, what I mean is that I like to pick out a gap in traffic into which I plan to go as I'm merging. The sightlines aren't great as there's a structure in the way that obscures the traffic on the 401.

If you're going from the 400S to the 401E, you have a high vantage point to plan things in advance, provided the 401 is actually moving.

I agree. And they just rebuilt this interchange..

Originally Posted by wave46

Unless the transports are going somewhere around the eastern or western edges of the city, generally through town is the most direct route.

No it is not. The main reason most trucks will stay on Regent is less than a few meters is the truck stop.

Originally Posted by wave46

The transports on 69 tend to have either Sudbury or the Sault as their final terminus as you'd never really want to take a rig up 17 past the Sault if you were going across the country. If the transports are going to the Sault direct, they often go through the US - enjoying a nice 4-lane highway all the way there.

Like I said, except for the new drivers, who will learn quickly why they are the only ones doing it..

[Dengler Avenue]

Thee western end is nearly 4km away from the 401. Leave it as is. It sserves the purpose of being a direct highway in and out of the airport.

I meant heading west on 409, south on 427 then west again 401 going west, and heading north on 427, east on 409 then 401 going east.

I think I've finally learned my lesson. I shouldn't assume that people know what I'm talking about.

For instance, when I said using Highway 7 to reach London, I should have said west on 7 then south on 4. (For some dumb reason, I thought 4 and 7 were concurrent from London to Lucan...) Sometimes I wonder whether SSP-ers like Djeffrey think I'm talking like a madman (though I do have a lot of fantasies - I will give everyone that)...

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I meant heading west on 409, south on 427 then west again 401 going west, and heading north on 427, east on 409 then 401 going east.

I think I've finally learned my lesson. I shouldn't assume that people know what I'm talking about.

For instance, when I said using Highway 7 to reach London, I should have said west on 7 then south on 4. (For some dumb reason, I thought 4 and 7 were concurrent from London to Lucan...) Sometimes I wonder whether SSP-ers like Djeffrey think I'm talking like a madman (though I do have a lot of fantasies - I will give everyone that)...

I do wonder what you are smokin'. What ever it is, please share it.

I still don't see how that would be advantageous as a collector of the 401.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I do wonder what you are smokin'. What ever it is, please share it.

I still don't see how that would be advantageous as a collector of the 401.

I mean, whenever my friends and I head east, if we see that 401 between 427 and 409 is bad and that 427 north and 409 east are fine, we go on the latter to bypass the bad part. Similar idea heading back, although it isn't as smooth because coming from 409 to 427 I end up going ~ 90 km/h.

What am I smoking? I think it's called (rough) life <rough by my book, though what I do know>...

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I mean, whenever my friends and I head east, if we see that 401 between 427 and 409 is bad and that 427 north and 409 east are fine, we go on the latter to bypass the bad part. Similar idea heading back, although it isn't as smooth because coming from 409 to 427 I end up going ~ 90 km/h.

What am I smoking? I think it's called (rough) life <rough by my book, though what I do know>...

I used to take the 427/409 as a bypass going eastbound as well, and usually found that the 409 would be just as backed up merging onto the 401 anyway, so I didn't really save anything. When I used to go down there with the truck for work, we would exit at Martin Grove and quite often the 409 would be backed up well west of that so we would end up exiting at Attwell and going around the backway. I never bothered doing the reverse though when coming westbound, just felt too much of a pain to end up that far north on the 427, and I hated getting put into the collectors back on the 401.

As for the ramps putting you into the collectors, I hate to say it, but that is what they are for and why they are called collectors. They collect the traffic from other roads and allow it to more efficiently (I say with a laugh at the suggestion the 401 is close to efficient around Toronto) merge in select crossover points. But as someone said, it would be beneficial for the 4xx to 401 transfers to have ramps to both so that those continuing on can go to express and those taking a local exit can go to collector. How many actually would, I have no idea, and I can only imagine the people who aren't familiar with it taking the express because it sounds faster, only to realize they now have to drive a long way to get turned around to get to that exit they see way over on their right.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by wave46

There aren't many cloverleafs on the 400-series highways anymore - they've mostly been turned into parclos. The last one I can think of was the 400 at Simcoe Rd. 88, but there might be a few in Eastern Ontario on the 401.

The closest 401 interchange to where I am sitting right now is still a full cloverleaf, exit 177, Colonel Talbot (highway 4). I did actually have to look it up on Google to make sure it still had all 4 inner loops, because I couldn't remember, although I do use this exit fairly often. I'm surprised they left the west to south loop in there because the first exit from westbound comes to a set of lights, so traffic could exit there and turn left to go south. Whenever I use this west to south ramp, it's in a truck and thankfully usually an empty one because it's a quick hit on the brakes, and hope no one is coming to north to west in front of me. This entire interchange is supposed to be removed and rebuilt, not sure when. There is another overpass immediately east of it that is being removed and moved half a km or so east so that there is enough room to make 3 lanes and a proper safe on ramp to the eastbound side.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.8546218,-81.2717503,1314m/data=!3m1!1e3

[flipper316]

https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/whistler/lack-of-road-lines-dangerous/Content?oid=14893240

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

IMO in places like KW where road network’s radial, it’s understandable. In grid-like places, it’s inexcusable.

Ah yes, KW home of King Street North, South, East and West.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

Ah yes, KW home of King Street North, South, East and West.

where King Street and Weber Street cross 3 times

The joke goes like this:
Q: What’s the fastest way to go from King/Weber (St Jacob’s) to King/Weber (Freeport)?
A: By the highway

[swimmer_spe]

https://drivetribe.com/p/what-is-the-hig...n=main+&utm_medium=fb&utm_source=organic

So, how fast can we go?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://drivetribe.com/p/what-is-the-hig...n=main+&utm_medium=fb&utm_source=organic

So, how fast can we go?

Given several factors (see below), I'd say we're close to maximum speed in Ontario - there might be some sections of the 400-series network that could handle 120 km/h-130 km/h.

Factors include:

1. Highway design (I think most of the 400-series highways are designed for 130km/h)

2. Driver competency. This probably is our weakest point. Driver training in North America is seriously lacking compared to Europe. I don't think raising the bar on that metric is possible given our cultural disposition to driving.

3. Traffic levels. This is one that will effectively be a limit in many areas.

[DavefromSt.Vital]

I recently drove to Niagara and back. I didn't notice any significant changes in driving behaviour on the QEW on the stretch between Hamilton and St. Catharines where the speed limit was increased to 110 km/h. The vehicles driving quickly were now not as far over the limit as they would have been previously and the ones going slowly were now more noticeably below the limit.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by DavefromSt.Vital

I recently drove to Niagara and back. I didn't notice any significant changes in driving behaviour on the QEW on the stretch between Hamilton and St. Catharines where the speed limit was increased to 110 km/h. The vehicles driving quickly were now not as far over the limit as they would have been previously and the ones going slowly were now more noticeably below the limit.

Everyone has a maximum speed they are comfortable to drive at. For me, it depends on several factors, including fuel mileage load and road conditions. I am certain most drivers are that way.