Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by vid

And in Ontario, the province buys the buses for the cities. The cities just maintain and insure them, but all the capital funding for vehicle procurement in smaller cities is provincially funded and the buses have "Government of Ontario" stickers on them.

Are the cities allowed to brand the buses and sell advertising on and in them?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Are the cities allowed to brand the buses and sell advertising on and in them?

Yup. You wouldn't know it was bought by the province.

[vid]

They are city-owned vehicles. The province just paid for them, and displays that to the world with its "Government of Ontario" sticker in the front right side window. The ad revenue goes to the city, the livery uses whatever the city transit livery is, and the vehicle numbering follows whatever pattern the city uses. The cash boxes and any other technology related to tracking or accessibility is all purchased by and maintained by the city, so the turnaround time to get one of the buses on the road once it arrives can be over a month as all that stuff is being done. I think the cities even get to pick the patterns on the seats, but since TB Transit became part of Metrolinx' buying group, the design changed, so I'm guessing there is a limited variety now since they're being bulk ordered by the thousands instead of custom ordered 3 at a time like before.

Public transit in the GTA should still be a truly regional system, not a bizarre patchwork of transit systems that change at seemingly arbitrary city limits. Imagine if Calgary had 6 transit systems! The GTA has around 40! And in Kitchener-Waterloo they don't use Presto, so if you live there and also use Go Train, you need to have two different cards!

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Have you guys asked Justin and Doug to buy you some eco-friendly buses or at least pay for 75%+ of the cost? If you can make a decent business case this is an investment I think most people would support. Ontario's big enough where you guys could put in a bulk order with a bus company to get some good deals and then allocate the buses to smaller sized cities.

A few people have already answered your questions so I don't need to go into details. I have watched a number Timmins of city council meetings where they have discussed the purchasing of buses. Here's an article that tell about a couple of Nova Buses purchased a couple of years ago. It should have mentioned how the purchasing is actually done through the provincial government along with other municipalities in order to get better prices. Contract pricing is what I guess you would call it. I pretty sure that Timmins is part of the Metrolinx purchasing.

https://www.timminstoday.com/local-news/two-new-buses-coming-to-timmins-transit-567705

Two new buses coming to Timmins Transit
Big bucks from big government will likely see city coffers off the hook for the bills
Mar 21, 2017 11:48 PM By: Andrew Autio

The city is purchasing two new buses for Timmins Transit at a total of $1,090,674. However, thanks to funds from the federal government the city will likely be on the hook for only half that amount, and that amount is likely to be covered by provincial funds.

Director of Community and Development Services Mark Jensen explained that due to the availability of the new Public Transit Infrastructure Fund (PTIF) which has been made available this year, the city is accelerating the purchase of a new bus.

"We're following our ten-year capital plan for bus replacement. We are accelerating the purchase of one bus this year, and we'll knock one off next year, just because we want to take full advantage of this funding opportunity that may or may not be here next year," said Jensen.

The agreement, for two 40-foot low-floor buses, is with Nova Bus, a Canadian manufacturer based in Saint-Eustache, Quebec, in suburban Montreal.

"In short, we were supposed to only acquire one this year, but we're going for two because the gas tax funding on the other side will cover the second bus."

In 2014 city council approved the continuation of a five year purchase agreement with Nova Bus, although it is subject to annual council approval before formally moving ahead with purchases.

Jensen said that the city will be able to rid themselves of the last two older, 1998 model Orion buses. They are considered obsolete, and do not have adequate accessibility for wheelchairs and strollers.

"We're almost at a homogenous fleet now in terms of manufacturer, which is fantastic. We have ongoing issues with finding replacement parts for those buses, which means the buses are offline for a longer period of time, which is never a good thing when you're trying to move people around the city," he said.

Jensen requested council approval as soon as possible, citing the long wait for delivery, and the fact that PTIF projects must be in the works by the end of March.

"It does take upwards of a year, or even more. Once you place the order formally, it takes 12 to 14 months to actually receive the bus, so we would prefer that this be approved this evening."

Councillor Mike Doody said that one of the big successes of AMO (Association of Municipalities of Ontario) is the gas tax, and the ability of cities to purchase newer transit buses. He asked Jensen for the number of buses that Timmins has been able to acquire through the fund.

"Oh jeeze, that's a tough one. I can tell you that we used to have 34 buses. We're down to about 19 now. I think we've replaced probably between eight and ten buses now," replied Jensen.

Doody asked how much a transit bus currently costs.

"They're usually around the half million dollar mark, depending on what you want for accessories," said Jensen.

Doody emphasized that Timmins has 'benefited bigtime' from the gas tax.

When it was time for the vote, there was no opposition.

[vid]

Novabus LFS is definitely the 20th century version of the GMC Newlook. Thunder Bay's system is now entirely Novabus. We had some NewFlyers but they were absolute trash, had to be sent back to Winnipeg and partially rebuilt within months of arrival because, despite us having a nearly identical climate to Winnipeg, our winter destroyed them. Never went back. The city bought a few Orions during the Harris years because he was friends with the owner but otherwise it's been Novabus since 1996.

[SpongeG]

Opinion:
A letter to the West: Let's put aside the climate change thing for a bit and focus on some realities

Why Alberta and Saskatchewan should pay attention to Ontario's painful economic lesson
Robert Fraser · for CBC News Opinion · Posted: Nov 30, 2019

This column is an opinion by Robert Fraser of Hamilton. He is a service technician in the scientific industry, a musician, amateur astronomer and political junkie. For more information about CBC's Opinion section, please see the FAQ.

Dear Westerners,

I'm one of the people many of you in Alberta and Saskatchewan likely despise. Yep, I plugged my nose and strategically voted Liberal on election day.

I don't think much of our prime minister. Though well-intentioned, he doesn't seem to have the intellect or vision of his father. And we could all use some of that in these complex times.

I've lived in Ontario all of my adult life and I'll soon be 60. Never worked in the public sector. Never had a unionized job. Always a wage slave lining the pockets of my corporate masters to keep my family afloat.

Well, almost ...

Back in the '90s it didn't matter who you voted for – free trade and NAFTA were being pushed on us like Buckley's cough syrup (tastes bad, but it works). Even Jean Chrétien caved after Bill Clinton told him it wasn't negotiable.

The ink wasn't even dry on these radical trade deals when the jobs started disappearing. Lots of them.

As I recall, we lost around 200,000 manufacturing jobs in Ontario during that miserable decade and beyond.

Unlike the "boom and bust" oil jobs out West, we knew our jobs were never coming back.

Adjustments were made. Families sold the second car, made do on one income for long periods of time. Frequently there were no incomes.

I was an under-employed middle-aged man for almost four years, and my polished resume meant nothing. We came so close to losing our home. I remember delivering papers in my beat-up car and unloading trucks at the local Walmart at night. I'll never forget my wife accepting charity one time because the floor under the Christmas tree was going to look sparse to our kids that year.

Even today, the skeletons of the old manufacturing plants are all around us in Ontario. I know the anguish you're feeling in the West.

The sad reality is that earning a decent living isn't a right in this world — it's a rare privilege.

...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-robert-fraser-leter-to-western-canada-1.5359091

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Opinion:
A letter to the West: Let's put aside the climate change thing for a bit and focus on some realities

Why Alberta and Saskatchewan should pay attention to Ontario's painful economic lesson
Robert Fraser · for CBC News Opinion · Posted: Nov 30, 2019

This column is an opinion by Robert Fraser of Hamilton. He is a service technician in the scientific industry, a musician, amateur astronomer and political junkie. For more information about CBC's Opinion section, please see the FAQ.

Dear Westerners,

I'm one of the people many of you in Alberta and Saskatchewan likely despise. Yep, I plugged my nose and strategically voted Liberal on election day.

I don't think much of our prime minister. Though well-intentioned, he doesn't seem to have the intellect or vision of his father. And we could all use some of that in these complex times.

I've lived in Ontario all of my adult life and I'll soon be 60. Never worked in the public sector. Never had a unionized job. Always a wage slave lining the pockets of my corporate masters to keep my family afloat.

Well, almost ...

Back in the '90s it didn't matter who you voted for – free trade and NAFTA were being pushed on us like Buckley's cough syrup (tastes bad, but it works). Even Jean Chrétien caved after Bill Clinton told him it wasn't negotiable.

The ink wasn't even dry on these radical trade deals when the jobs started disappearing. Lots of them.

As I recall, we lost around 200,000 manufacturing jobs in Ontario during that miserable decade and beyond.

Unlike the "boom and bust" oil jobs out West, we knew our jobs were never coming back.

Adjustments were made. Families sold the second car, made do on one income for long periods of time. Frequently there were no incomes.

I was an under-employed middle-aged man for almost four years, and my polished resume meant nothing. We came so close to losing our home. I remember delivering papers in my beat-up car and unloading trucks at the local Walmart at night. I'll never forget my wife accepting charity one time because the floor under the Christmas tree was going to look sparse to our kids that year.

Even today, the skeletons of the old manufacturing plants are all around us in Ontario. I know the anguish you're feeling in the West.

The sad reality is that earning a decent living isn't a right in this world — it's a rare privilege.

...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-robert-fraser-leter-to-western-canada-1.5359091

I read that last night. It is something they do not want to think about. Many of our industries haven't recovered, even 20+ years later. We could build all the pipelines the oil patch asks for, but those places will only be shutting down. I give it 20 years before they close most if not all of the operations, not because of lack of resources, but lack of markets.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I read that last night. It is something they do not want to think about. Many of our industries haven't recovered, even 20+ years later. We could build all the pipelines the oil patch asks for, but those places will only be shutting down. I give it 20 years before they close most if not all of the operations, not because of lack of resources, but lack of markets.

Demand for oil, etc. is going up and as places like India continue to grow so will the demand. A better question is why does the anti-oil crowd refuse to admit this fact?

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Demand for oil, etc. is going up and as places like India continue to grow so will the demand. A better question is why does the anti-oil crowd refuse to admit this fact?

why do pro oil cling to that? or ypur phone is made out of oil, your laptop is made of oil blah blah blah

[someone123]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

why do pro oil cling to that? or ypur phone is made out of oil, your laptop is made of oil blah blah blah

It's true that fossil fuel feedstocks are used to make plastics but I think it's something like 4% of the usage in the world that goes into that. Most fossil fuels are burned and used for energy. If we were to move to other energy sources but still wanted current plastic consumption would could easily accommodate that with very low production and low GHG emissions compared to what exists today.

Oil consumption already peaked in the developed world. The global forecasts I've seen suggest an overall peak around 2030-2050. This of course means we won't stop using oil tomorrow, but there's a big difference between a growing industry and a declining industry. Exploration will become less worthwhile since there are already large reserves and production will shift to the places with the lowest cost. This already played out with coal but a few decades before oil.

[SpongeG]

My job is dependant on the oil industry and things up north are bad, many layoffs, companies shutting down, one company has told its employees to look for new jobs cause its only a matter of time before they get laid off or close down.

Alberta needs to diversify more but they don't seem to want to thats the part I am trying to figure out why people are against diversifying.

...

Why Are Oil Markets Suddenly So Volatile?
By Josh Owens - Nov 30, 2019

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Why-Are-Oil-Markets-Suddenly-So-Volatile.html

Oil prices to remain subdued in 2020, according to economists
BY DIPTENDU LAHIRI REUTERS
Posted November 29, 2019

https://globalnews.ca/news/6234849/oil-price-forecast-2020/

Is Today’s Oil Price Plunge A Sign Of Things To Come?
By Tom Kool - Nov 29, 2019

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Is-Todays-Oil-Price-Plunge-A-Sign-Of-Things-To-Come.html

Oil Prices Are Going Nowhere Next Year
By Tsvetana Paraskova - Nov 29, 2019

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Oil-Prices-Are-Going-Nowhere-Next-Year.html

Oil prices fall as U.S. inventory data shows surprise gain
Published: Nov 27, 2019

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/oil-pr...act-optimism-provides-a-floor-2019-11-27

[MacLac]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

why do pro oil cling to that? or ypur phone is made out of oil, your laptop is made of oil blah blah blah

"Cling" to that? Cuz it's true. World demand is going up....we "pro" oil'ers don't have to cling to anything. Btw, if you work up in Rainbow Lake...it's ALL Nat Gas up there.....it ain't the "oil patch there...but rather the "Nat Gas" patch....just saying......

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Demand for oil, etc. is going up and as places like India continue to grow so will the demand. A better question is why does the anti-oil crowd refuse to admit this fact?

Originally Posted by MacLac

"Cling" to that? Cuz it's true. World demand is going up....we "pro" oil'ers don't have to cling to anything. Btw, if you work up in Rainbow Lake...it's ALL Nat Gas up there.....it ain't the "oil patch there...but rather the "Nat Gas" patch....just saying......

It's not that there isn't going to be a market for oil. There isn't going to be a market for high cost oil. Which any oil operation in the developed world is going to be, generally.

It's the same way with manufacturing. We didn't stop driving cars. Far from it, the number of cars being built is higher than ever before in history. But Ontario's (and the USA's, and Europe's, etc.) car industry still declined. It didn't disappear, either. There still exists car plants in Ontario where people work. It's just that it shrunk/stopped growing. This is because changes in global market dynamics (namely, free trade and the rise of emerging economies with lower costs).

It's the same with Alberta oil. It's a mistake to assume that just because world oil is climbing, Alberta oil is necessarily going to keep growing. It doesn't work that way. If it did, North America and Europe would still have a growing car industry.

[Bishop2047]

Originally Posted by CityTech

It's not that there isn't going to be a market for oil. There isn't going to be a market for high cost oil. Which any oil operation in the developed world is going to be, generally.

It's the same way with manufacturing. We didn't stop driving cars. Far from it, the number of cars being built is higher than ever before in history. But Ontario's (and the USA's, and Europe's, etc.) car industry still declined. It didn't disappear, either. There still exists car plants in Ontario where people work. It's just that it shrunk/stopped growing. This is because changes in global market dynamics (namely, free trade and the rise of emerging economies with lower costs).

It's the same with Alberta oil. It's a mistake to assume that just because world oil is climbing, Alberta oil is necessarily going to keep growing. It doesn't work that way. If it did, North America and Europe would still have a growing car industry.

Well said. All you have to do is look at Coal. Demand did not drop off, but the price of coal due to oversupply killed off many suppliers, and the high salary positions it used to provide. Coal is still used and still mined but it is not the bastion of continuous growth that it once was. We have to assume that the same is happening to oil. Demand is not going anywhere, but the days of unending growth in the industry are unlikely to return.

Alberta will be fine, it is not the end of the world. There will be diversification, and the sooner the politicians/people get on board the better. We just may not see the incredible growth rates we once saw there.

SK is already pretty diverse in the resource extraction game, and won't be so hard hit by any one industry suffering.

[kel]

The rest of the world has no problems getting there oil to market. Canada on the other hand has been had by its own people falling for big American interference attacking Canada’s energy industry for they can buy it at below market prices as we have no other option but to ship to the states.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Pinus

Again, the vast majority of Manitoban's do not want separation. Sure, many of us do not care for how we are treated by Ottawa at times (what else is new, it's been this way since our entry into confederation), but we do not share the separatist mentality of Alberta or Saskatchewan.

Just to be clear

lol I was referring to Quebec. No other province has that special bargaining chip

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by MacLac

"Cling" to that? Cuz it's true. World demand is going up....we "pro" oil'ers don't have to cling to anything. Btw, if you work up in Rainbow Lake...it's ALL Nat Gas up there.....it ain't the "oil patch there...but rather the "Nat Gas" patch....just saying......

Your logic is common in Alberta and why I fear for the province's future.

Yes, as we have gone thru a thousand times, world demand is still rising and is expected to crest in about 2 to 3 years. Much of the increase in demand in the last 15 years has been due to the developing world and especially the two giants in the room, China & India.

Despite this however, oil prices today are the same as they were in 2005. Prices are not only a reflection of demand but also supply and the world has more oil than it knows what to do with. When you consider that one of the world's largest exporters, Venezuela, is out of the game, the price levels are even worse as eventually Maduro will be overthrown and Venezuela will start pumping oil again adding to world supply and depressing prices. Actually if Alberta was to see all of it's pipeline dreams come true and Alberta can actually start exporting huge amounts of oil, world prices will fall because of it.

Oil will always be part of Alberta's economy as the world will always need oil for a variety of things but it's biggest usage of transportation and electrical production are quickly coming to an end. The sad thing is Albertans know it but just don't want to accept it and it will be the young Albertans who pay the price for Alberta's lack of vision.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Your logic is common in Alberta and why I fear for the province's future.

Yes, as we have gone thru a thousand times, world demand is still rising and is expected to crest in about 2 to 3 years. Much of the increase in demand in the last 15 years has been due to the developing world and especially the two giants in the room, China & India.

Despite this however, oil prices today are the same as they were in 2005. Prices are not only a reflection of demand but also supply and the world has more oil than it knows what to do with. When you consider that one of the world's largest exporters, Venezuela, is out of the game, the price levels are even worse as eventually Maduro will be overthrown and Venezuela will start pumping oil again adding to world supply and depressing prices. Actually if Alberta was to see all of it's pipeline dreams come true and Alberta can actually start exporting huge amounts of oil, world prices will fall because of it.

Oil will always be part of Alberta's economy as the world will always need oil for a variety of things but it's biggest usage of transportation and electrical production are quickly coming to an end. The sad thing is Albertans know it but just don't want to accept it and it will be the young Albertans who pay the price for Alberta's lack of vision.

Well said. It's a bit like the "clean" coal thing in the US, but less stupid. The nation benefited financially for quite some time, but should not spend a penny on subsidizing dirty industry at diminished returns, when it could be spent on re-educating a quarter-million Canadians in and outside the industry, job training, healthcare, etc. I wish I could say "let Alberta do what it wants", but unfortunately we share the same air.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Opinion:
A letter to the West: Let's put aside the climate change thing for a bit and focus on some realities

Why Alberta and Saskatchewan should pay attention to Ontario's painful economic lesson
Robert Fraser · for CBC News Opinion · Posted: Nov 30, 2019

This column is an opinion by Robert Fraser of Hamilton. He is a service technician in the scientific industry, a musician, amateur astronomer and political junkie. For more information about CBC's Opinion section, please see the FAQ.

Dear Westerners,

I'm one of the people many of you in Alberta and Saskatchewan likely despise. Yep, I plugged my nose and strategically voted Liberal on election day.

I don't think much of our prime minister. Though well-intentioned, he doesn't seem to have the intellect or vision of his father. And we could all use some of that in these complex times.

I've lived in Ontario all of my adult life and I'll soon be 60. Never worked in the public sector. Never had a unionized job. Always a wage slave lining the pockets of my corporate masters to keep my family afloat.

Well, almost ...

Back in the '90s it didn't matter who you voted for – free trade and NAFTA were being pushed on us like Buckley's cough syrup (tastes bad, but it works). Even Jean Chrétien caved after Bill Clinton told him it wasn't negotiable.

The ink wasn't even dry on these radical trade deals when the jobs started disappearing. Lots of them.

As I recall, we lost around 200,000 manufacturing jobs in Ontario during that miserable decade and beyond.

Unlike the "boom and bust" oil jobs out West, we knew our jobs were never coming back.

Adjustments were made. Families sold the second car, made do on one income for long periods of time. Frequently there were no incomes.

I was an under-employed middle-aged man for almost four years, and my polished resume meant nothing. We came so close to losing our home. I remember delivering papers in my beat-up car and unloading trucks at the local Walmart at night. I'll never forget my wife accepting charity one time because the floor under the Christmas tree was going to look sparse to our kids that year.

Even today, the skeletons of the old manufacturing plants are all around us in Ontario. I know the anguish you're feeling in the West.

The sad reality is that earning a decent living isn't a right in this world — it's a rare privilege.

...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-robert-fraser-leter-to-western-canada-1.5359091

Why does it have to all be about manufacturing?

Ontario has been doing very well over the last 20 years and unemployment is very low. We now have many more high tech jobs that pay well. And there are many other industries that are doing much better today. Gold mining has been hot in Northern Ontario for the last 15 years. There are more smaller sized businesses and self-employed people. Things change and we can't forget how a large percentage of Ontarians used to work in agriculture 100 years ago.

We have shortages of people in many things including construction, service sector, automotive mechanics, specialized skills and much more. The issue is that some people aren't able to adapt to changes or be willing to obtain the skills needed for the new jobs.

[ssiguy]

It's not just Alberta that is banking it's future economy on a dying commodity as BC is doing the exact same with natural gas.

Natural gas will have longer staying power than oil in terms of transportation and especially electrical production because it has lower emissions {although still very polluting} than oil and is far less dangerous to transport on the oceans as a spill of LNG isn't near as environmentally damaging as an oil spill. That said, several countries have plans to phase out all natural gas like the big one, Germany which wants no natural gas of any kind by 2050 due to it's environmental damage.

BC has managed to convince itself that LNG is a "clean" technology which everyone else on the planet knows is a bold faced lie. Forgeting the climate change devestation LNG causes, it's also a damn lousy commodity to base your future economy on. Natural gas prices have faired even worse than oil. Natural gas prices are the same today as they were in 1993 which doesn't even take into account inflation. Again, decent demand but WAY too much supply on the world markets and when BC starts producing and exporting adding to an even bigger glut, prices worldwide will decline even further.