London Roads

[haljackey]

Problem is if anyone who isn't going in the flow of rush hour traffic wants to turn left there is no way for people to go around them due to lack of lanes. Left turns could be banned this time of day, but there is no way to prevent anyone from doing this.
-Same with the reversible lanes... someone might not know and there would be accidents. Most reversible lane systems are separated from other traffic with a median.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by haljackey

One solution to the left turning issue is to add a centre median similar to Highway 24 in Cambridge. In order to turn left, you would have to turn right on a intersecting road with traffic lights and u-turn to turn left from there. (Highway 24 permits U-turns on the road itself.)
-Businesses will hate it, but it is one way of increasing capacity and efficiency.

That's not a bad idea at all, they really do need to do something with that road and eliminating left turns would be a good start as that has to be at the top of the list for "slowing" down flow on that street.

Of course they also need to get the underpass at Horton upgraded to 4 lanes sooner than later.

It actually might be a good thing for business as well in the end as it might encourage more people to take that road if traffic flowed better.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Highway 24/Heslper Rd in Cambridge is good set up. If Wellington was fully developed on both sides, would be a good candidate for such a plan.. Ironically friends of mine in Cambridge despise taking 24, yet compared to London it's a huge improvement and decent road IMO to take.

Only issue with a plan like that on Wharncliffe is there's literally no space, even for a narrow median. The lanes are already much narrower than standard lanes, and especially between Emery and Elmwood there's little to no setback for houses and businesses. At even a couple of feet the city would be have Wharncliffe literally at front steps, if not complete tearing down buildings. At that rate the city might as well expropriate, make Wharncliffe a 5-lane with centre turn.
----

+1 MrSlippery519

Widening/building new CN & CP overpasses is what really needs to be done. Would kill 2 horrible bottlenecks, allow left turns southbound onto Horton, more free movement of traffic. Unfortunately they keep getting delayed, I think tentatively scheduled ~2022, which no doubt will get bumped further into the future barring some new provincial funding tools...

[haljackey]

One in four London roads needs big fix or major overhaul, says study

You know I always thought London would have better roads since we decided not to build a freeway network. That way more funds could be allocated to repairing and improving roadways / transit corridors that would have otherwise gone into freeway construction and maintenance.

[Snark]

Originally Posted by haljackey

One in four London roads needs big fix or major overhaul, says study

You know I always thought London would have better roads since we decided not to build a freeway network. That way more funds could be allocated to repairing and improving roadways / transit corridors that would have otherwise gone into freeway construction and maintenance.

By typical Ontario municipal service level standards, if a municipality's pavement needs are about a quarter of the overall road network, that would be average or perhaps even slightly better than average. If the Freep says that London is falling apart, then every other municipality with a road network as old as London's are falling apart as well.

As for no freeway freeing up dollars for improved road maintenance, it doesn't work that way unfortunately: the total life cycle costs of a road is predominately after initial installation. If the City did own a freeway, it would exasperate the problem because it would have the additional financial burden of O&M, rehab, and reconstruction of said freeway - and freeways are much more expensive to remediate on a unit cost basis with much shorter cycles between those required work events. In short, it would take away from annual funding allocated to upkeep of the remaining 97% of the City's road network but would eat much more than 3% of the annual road budget. This is why municipalities generally don't own or operate freeways: they are a massive financial liability that most cannot or wish not to afford. This is why the only Ontario municipality that owns and operates a significant freeway network is Toronto.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Snark

By typical Ontario municipal service level standards, if a municipality's pavement needs are about a quarter of the overall road network, that would be average or perhaps even slightly better than average. If the Freep says that London is falling apart, then every other municipality with a road network as old as London's are falling apart as well.

As for no freeway freeing up dollars for improved road maintenance, it doesn't work that way unfortunately: the total life cycle costs of a road is predominately after initial installation. If the City did own a freeway, it would exasperate the problem because it would have the additional financial burden of O&M, rehab, and reconstruction of said freeway - and freeways are much more expensive to remediate on a unit cost basis with much shorter cycles between those required work events. In short, it would take away from annual funding allocated to upkeep of the remaining 97% of the City's road network but would eat much more than 3% of the annual road budget. This is why municipalities generally don't own or operate freeways: they are a massive financial liability that most cannot or wish not to afford. This is why the only Ontario municipality that owns and operates a significant freeway network is Toronto.

Hamilton also has a couple of city-owned expressways, ones that I think should be under provincial jurisdiction anyways. London had its chance when Highway 402 was being built and they blew it. I don't know how the roads are in K-W, but Waterloo Region must just love not having to worry about the Conestoga Parkway and Highway 8.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Highway 402 as an in-city freeway would have been ~90% paid by the province. While no one knows exactly how the funding breakdown for maintaining the 402 in London over the decades, safe bet the province would be picking up the lions share of it. It was London's greatest folly turning down a near fully funded freeway because some NIMBYs made noise about it and a weak kneed council buckled to it but alas past is the past.

---

It really is unfortunate that there's even a discussion about infrastructure funding gap for roads. It's the most basic of municipal functions, yet seems that council wants to get involved in every other idiotic initiative that has not the slightest things to do with municipal function. All over LFPress about how council is deciding about which Performing Arts Centre proposal our council will piss millions of dollars at. Millions more pissed away each year on the shit operations of Convention Centre, Museum London, Centennial Hall. Municipal government needs to do it's basic functions first, like roads and sewers, then if there's money left over pay for these pet projects that are endless money pits on municipal finances.

However if the provincial Liberals are able to survive to their next budget, we'll likely be getting a 1% HST hike to pay for transit and roads so it might end up being a moot point. But more tax increases are a lazy way of fixing another made up problem.

Here's the City Report on the Transportation Infrastructure Gap: http://sire.london.ca/view.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&fileid=114833

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

It really is unfortunate that there's even a discussion about infrastructure funding gap for roads. It's the most basic of municipal functions, yet seems that council wants to get involved in every other idiotic initiative that has not the slightest things to do with municipal function. All over LFPress about how council is deciding about which Performing Arts Centre proposal our council will piss millions of dollars at. Millions more pissed away each year on the shit operations of Convention Centre, Museum London, Centennial Hall. Municipal government needs to do it's basic functions first, like roads and sewers, then if there's money left over pay for these pet projects that are endless money pits on municipal finances.

Here's the City Report on the Transportation Infrastructure Gap: http://sire.london.ca/view.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&fileid=114833

+1

+1 more for link. Those graphs look very bad, but I would assume many other Ontario/Canadian cities face similar problems.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

Highway 402 as an in-city freeway would have been ~90% paid by the province. While no one knows exactly how the funding breakdown for maintaining the 402 in London over the decades, safe bet the province would be picking up the lions share of it. It was London's greatest folly turning down a near fully funded freeway because some NIMBYs made noise about it and a weak kneed council buckled to it but alas past is the past.

The 401 through Toronto is 100% funded by the provincial government with contributions from the federal government through the National Highways Program, isn't it?

[Pimpmasterdac]

Unfortunately London has the unique misfortune of have no freeway in the city. I'm sure KW, Windsor, Hamilton, Guelph, Oakville etc. other similar municipalities have the same funding shortfalls, but have a freeway that can divert a significant amount of traffic and and wear & tear.

Ultimately the money is there, it's just council doesn't want to make the difficult but necessary decisions for it. While road repair and expansion are basic municipal functions, they don't make as good a news story, as say performing arts centre battles or poor people who will be affected by cutting x (insert social service) or culture loss of defunding whatever money pit organization the city currently bails out annually.

Originally Posted by haljackey

Those graphs look very bad, but I would assume many other Ontario/Canadian cities face similar problems.

I believe your correct manny, the 401 in Toronto is provincially funded. Although when Highway 8 in Kitchener was widened over the Grand River from the 401 a few years ago from 4 to 8 lanes, the total cost was $84 million, senior levels picked up $70, leaving KW with $14 million municipally or roughly 16% of the total cost.

Again it's one of those hypothetical questions we'll never know. Being a proposed 400 series highway in London, you would think the highway would be entirely provincially funded if not a similar funding agreement to KW's Highway 8. Being that 402 was proposed in some sections to be 6 lanes wide, how wide the whole road would be present day or the costs of it..

Originally Posted by manny_santos

The 401 through Toronto is 100% funded by the provincial government with contributions from the federal government through the National Highways Program, isn't it?

[haljackey]

Some new HQ photos of Highway 401 in London are now available on Asphalt Planet: http://asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_401_images/Hwy401_p4_images.htm

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

Unfortunately London has the unique misfortune of have no freeway in the city. I'm sure KW, Windsor, Hamilton, Guelph, Oakville etc. other similar municipalities have the same funding shortfalls, but have a freeway that can divert a significant amount of traffic and and wear & tear.

You bet...unique and a huge problem that quite frankly I am not sure will ever be solved. Unfortunately London had their chance with the 402, and at this point to add a real freeway in the city would be an astronomical investment.

As we continue to sprawl roads like Wonderland which could have been converted to a freeway are no longer an option and the problem just continues to get worse.

Maybe they can build an elevated freeway over top of Highbury and Oxford connecting to each side of the city........

[haljackey]

Arterial roads take more of a beating since there are no freeways to relieve some of the stress. This means they wear faster.

Fontana calls bulls*it on the road/BRT funding plan http://www.lfpress.com/2013/10/07/london-mayor-joe-fontana-fires-bs-salvo-in-transit-debate


Tolls proposed to curb funding shortfall: http://www.lfpress.com/2013/10/07/tolls-eyed-to-fill-funding-shortfall

What's London going to do, build their own 407ETR?

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Arterial roads take more of a beating since there are no freeways to relieve some of the stress. This means they wear faster.

Fontana calls bulls*it on the road/BRT funding plan http://www.lfpress.com/2013/10/07/london-mayor-joe-fontana-fires-bs-salvo-in-transit-debate


Tolls proposed to curb funding shortfall: http://www.lfpress.com/2013/10/07/tolls-eyed-to-fill-funding-shortfall

What's London going to do, build their own 407ETR?

I am actually kind of glad he called BS on there plan, not often do I agree with Fontana but as he said they need to get a solid plan together (not a 20 year plan) and go to the powers at be and ask for money.

As for London's 407 haha...honestly though something like that would be our only shot at a real inter city freeway and it would never happen. If they were to build something like that I would gladly pay to drive on it if it meant I could go from east/west or north/south in less than half the time it currently takes.

[Pimpmasterdac]

There's no way London could have an in-city freeway now. They would potentially have a ring road.. some decade around the current fringes of the city, which could be a benefit when we're all long and gone. Only way I could ever see an in-city freeway is if somehow CP & CN Railways amalgamated their trackage, city acquired the abandoned ROW and made that into a freeway, but even that would be quite a stretch and an undertaking.

Originally Posted by MrSlippery519

You bet...unique and a huge problem that quite frankly I am not sure will ever be solved. Unfortunately London had their chance with the 402, and at this point to add a real freeway in the city would be an astronomical investment.
...
Maybe they can build an elevated freeway over top of Highbury and Oxford connecting to each side of the city........

Tolling roads is a joke. The set up costs and political hit wouldn't be worth the small amount of revenue. I guess the city could try rolling bridges but that would be political suicide for anyone endorsing such a plan.

[ericlewis91]

At least link veterans memorial parkway to Fanshawe Park Road...

[K85]

Won't happen. Lots of people wouldn't support going through Fanshawe and the forests to do it.

[haljackey]

Long term plans show a VMP extension along the edge of the Fanshawe Conservation Area and transitioning to Clarke Road. Clarke would be either a 4 lane freeway or 6 lane arterial to Fanshawe Park Road.

I am still perplexed why this city grows mostly to the north. The lack of transportation services for this area of the city is insane. Some would rather take Hwy 7/8 to the 401 rather than cross the city.

[K85]

Still think it wont happen. Environmental nuts won't let it. I'd be against it myself

[haljackey]

Interesting how the MTO shows both the Highbury and The VMP as the same type of road as the 401 and 402.

Divided highway, maybe?



http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/map/images/pdf/southont/enlargements/London.pdf