[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[sdm]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The interesting thing for the population will be if a critical mass can be maintained with the babyboomers retiring. I'm hoping that HRM can make it to at least 500,000 - but I'm worried if the numbers will drop off once we see the boomers retire.

Well enlight of todays budget i doubt we will see much growth in the city's population. Sorry to be negative, but reality is we are not competitive and our cost of living is going up faster then people are seeing increase in salaries.

With a budget that hits the high income bracket (doctors,lawyers,CEO's) many will look at options in other provinces that provide close to and maybe more then 10% savings a year. Coupled with this the HST increase and you have a stalled growth economy.

[sdm]

Interesting articles in the following links.

NSBJ opinion article is very well put.

http://www.atlanticfarmfocus.ca/specialsections/FarmFocus/108/pdfs/1516/

[fenwick16]

I am sorry for trying to sound optimistic about the future of Halifax. You are right planarchy and sdm, I am going to stay in the Toronto area where I can watch MLB, NHL, CFL, NFL, NBA, MLS ... And watch museums, stadiums, major arenas, 70 storey office towers, billion dollar airport terminals, billion dollar subway lines all being built without the Heritage Trust and every Tom, Dick and Harry opposing it. Give me a break - can some of you get any more depressing?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I am sorry for trying to sound optimistic about the future of Halifax. You are right planarchy and sdm, I am going to stay in the Toronto area where I can watch MLB, NHL, CFL, NFL, NBA, MLS ... And watch museums, stadiums, major arenas, 70 storey office towers, billion dollar airport terminals, billion dollar subway lines all being built without the Heritage Trust and every Tom, Dick and Harry opposing it. Give me a break - can some of you get any more depressing?

PS: Maybe in 50 years, once many of us are dead and gone, this Maritime inferiority complex will eventually wear off. Look at Chicago, it is cold in the winter, and a 100 years ago it was in the middle of nowhere, and somehow they managed to grow into a major city.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by sdm

Well enlight of todays budget i doubt we will see much growth in the city's population. Sorry to be negative, but reality is we are not competitive and our cost of living is going up faster then people are seeing increase in salaries.

With a budget that hits the high income bracket (doctors,lawyers,CEO's) many will look at options in other provinces that provide close to and maybe more then 10% savings a year. Coupled with this the HST increase and you have a stalled growth economy.

Its not about that in Halifax... your second point isn't likely.

The net outcome of living other places in Canada is different for doctors, lawyers, CEOs (whom Halifax actually attracts due to its importance in the region). Halifax is simply such a cheap market in comparison to larger more important regional centres (Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal). Alot of these folks are laughing to the bank because their house would be $5-$10 million anywhere else...

In Whistler I used to live on a street where the average price of a house was $5 million and these were just people's wintering houses. You'd have to be a rediculously wealthy person to live like that and it just shows how much more expensive things are in BC.

Halifax is an easy place for these people to live a life that would even be hard to even for their position in society to match in other markets.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I am sorry for trying to sound optimistic about the future of Halifax. You are right planarchy and sdm, I am going to stay in the Toronto area where I can watch MLB, NHL, CFL, NFL, NBA, MLS ... And watch museums, stadiums, major arenas, 70 storey office towers, billion dollar airport terminals, billion dollar subway lines all being built without the Heritage Trust and every Tom, Dick and Harry opposing it. Give me a break - can some of you get any more depressing?

Its reality.

Things also take time and the local economy is not ready for the next sized city until we gain more private sector employers. Alot of factors shaped Toronto's current position and its simply a different story out here.

We need a bigger population and business community to even think about getting a legitimate pro sports franchise. Alot of money is out of Halifax right now that will eventually come home to roost. I see a bright future, but its going to take time.

Also understand that there eventually will be no heritage trust because I don't think alot of people are signing up.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I am sorry for trying to sound optimistic about the future of Halifax. You are right planarchy and sdm, I am going to stay in the Toronto area where I can watch MLB, NHL, CFL, NFL, NBA, MLS ... And watch museums, stadiums, major arenas, 70 storey office towers, billion dollar airport terminals, billion dollar subway lines all being built without the Heritage Trust and every Tom, Dick and Harry opposing it. Give me a break - can some of you get any more depressing?

It is depressing, but reality. The government had the opportunity to give Halifax hope, and no i don't mean a trade centre. It had the chance to reduce taxes, stimulate, foster growth, make people want to come to Halifax and live and work here. Everything we need. Even with a business community telling them not to do what they did, they in the end chose to not listen.

It is sad in that the reason we (Nova Scotians) are negative is we are punished. Our attitudes in general are negative because of this.We are defeated we don't stand up, and rather just complain as it’s easier. (well some of us).

In the end i have always stated i support a trade centre if the business case exists. I personally don't like the subsized opportunity this is providing as i believe it could compromise growth in the form of other projects and in effect places all hope on just this project to turn the downtown around. The realities are Halifax is a small market, so small in fact that close to 50% of the downtown commercial office space is occupied by government.

We need to turn our concerns towards finding ways to attract more people who will live here and provide towards the economy first and foremost, not just visiting. Without that we will increase our status as a place to retire, while many young people will go and search for opportunities in other provinces/world.

[fenwick16]

One thing I forgot to mention (and which always seems to be ignored in endless articles against the convention centre) is that the federal government has probably already committed money to this (if the NS government does the same). This isn't a stadium -there is federal stimulus money available. One reason for the larger than expected NS deficit is because they are increasing capital spending, partly because the provincial government wants to obtain federal stimulus money. This is one reason why the new Central Library is proceeding now.

The Ontario government is expecting close to a $20 billion dollar deficit in 2010 - 2011 and still people up here are expecting the province to continue to grow in population (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/03/25/ontario-budget-duncan-main.html).

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

One thing I forgot to mention (and which always seems to be ignored in endless articles against the convention centre) is that the federal government has probably already committed money to this (if the NS government does the same). This isn't a stadium -there is federal stimulus money available. One reason for the larger than expected NS deficit is because they are increasing capital spending, partly because the provincial government wants to obtain federal stimulus money. This is one reason why the new Central Library is proceeding now.

The Ontario government is expecting close to a $20 billion dollar deficit in 2010 - 2011 and still people up here are expecting the province to continue to grow in population (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/03/25/ontario-budget-duncan-main.html).

I intrupt that the fed's haven't committed money and that due to the project being late to start is in jepordy of recieving funds altogether. Feel free to correct if my intruptation is incorrect.

Certainly great points about ontario, but Ontario has many industries and has critical mass now. In Nova Scotia we are industry suppressed.

Other factors are, and feel free to correct me if my facts are wrong, is that anyone in ontario earning over 76k a year is taxed at about 11.5%. Here in Nova Scotia we are introducing a new bracket that if you make over 150K you will be taxed 21.5%. So in the end there is significant savings in ontario if you earn more. Here its simply if you earn to much you are punished.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

We need to turn our concerns towards finding ways to attract more people who will live here and provide towards the economy first and foremost, not just visiting. Without that we will increase our status as a place to retire, while many young people will go and search for opportunities in other provinces/world.

A convention centre will attract people to the city and some will want to stay and invest. How will Halifax grow if it can't even support a convention centre that most cities take for granted? Do you think that the Metro Centre was good for Halifax? If it wasn't built, would there be people arguing that Halifax doesn't need it (would you argue that now)? What will attract people to Halifax? Many people in other cities (even smaller cities) expect some amenities like a stadium. Is there a business case for building the new Central Library. sdm, take a chance on Halifax and have faith that people will want to go there. There is no proof that it will succeed until it is built. You seem to have knowledge of business so you must know that this is always the case.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Other factors are, and feel free to correct me if my facts are wrong, is that anyone in ontario earning over 76k a year is taxed at about 11.5%. Here in Nova Scotia we are introducing a new bracket that if you make over 150K you will be taxed 21.5%. So in the end there is significant savings in ontario if you earn more. Here its simply if you earn to much you are punished.

I just checked my income tax form - this is right, it is 11.16% for any amount over 73.7 K. The 21.5% NS tax is probably for amounts on top of 150K (so the first 150 K probably is not taxed at 21.5%). In Ontario, only amounts over $73.7 K are taxed at 11.16%.

I don't like seeing tax increases, especially the HST going to 15%. However, property tax are higher in the Toronto area and mortgages are higher than the Halifax area. Also, the deficit as a percentage of the 2010 budget is much lower in NS than in Ontario. So Ontario is going to have to make some serious adjustments to it tax structure. Ontario also has hidden taxes like the Ontario health plan tax.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

A convention centre will attract people to the city and some will want to stay and invest. How will Halifax grow if it can't even support a convention centre that most cities take for granted? Do you think that the Metro Centre was good for Halifax? If it wasn't built, would there be people arguing that Halifax doesn't need it (would you argue that now)? What will attract people to Halifax? Many people in other cities (even smaller cities) expect some amenities like a stadium. Is there a business case for building the new Central Library. sdm, take a chance on Halifax and have faith that people will want to go there. There is no proof that it will succeed until it is built. You seem to have knowledge of business so you must know that this is always the case.

Yes Fenwick a convention centre will attract visitors and people to the city, and questionable if they would relocate here after a visit. It would only then would they see the unfavourable economics this government has imposed and be detered away. This upsets me greatly as i too want Halifax to become the city it can be.

To explain, I know first hand as a number of my clients, large international companies are rethinking Halifax as a place to do business as the cost of doing business here is rising. If the employment pool decreases, which its likely will continue to do, then it makes it that much harder for Nova Scotia to compete.

We want business to locate to Halifax. We have trade centres, we just don;t have one that will meet less 10% of the total market (Tier a) segment. I rather see 3-5 smaller convention centres that can attract the majority of the market.

If these governments were smart they would do what was original planned, expand the current trade centre into the metro centre (was designed to do this) and build a new arena. Therefore we get the best of both worlds. That i would support, and even put money behind.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Yes Fenwick a convention centre will attract visitors and people to the city, and questionable if they would relocate here after a visit. It would only then would they see the unfavourable economics this government has imposed and be detered away. This upsets me greatly as i too want Halifax to become the city it can be.

To explain, I know first hand as a number of my clients, large international companies are rethinking Halifax as a place to do business as the cost of doing business here is rising. If the employment pool decreases, which its likely will continue to do, then it makes it that much harder for Nova Scotia to compete.

We want business to locate to Halifax. We have trade centres, we just don;t have one that will meet less 10% of the total market (Tier a) segment. I rather see 3-5 smaller convention centres that can attract the majority of the market.

If these governments were smart they would do what was original planned, expand the current trade centre into the metro centre (was designed to do this) and build a new arena. Therefore we get the best of both worlds. That i would support, and even put money behind.

I really can't see any savings in expanding the convention centre into the Metro Centre. It is already set up to be an exhibit space. To make it larger would mean ripping all the seats out which would likely cost a minimum of $50 million and would not be an attractive venue. On top of that, $100 million for a new 12,000 seat Metro Centre (not much larger than the current one).

A 25,000 - 30,000 seat economical bench style football/soccer stadium (like InfoCision Stadium in Akron, Ohio) would attract events that a hockey arena is not large enough to hold. With the new convention centre, Halifax would be able to hold medium/large size conventions, medium size concerts and hockey games/ice events (in the current Metro Centre) and large concerts/CFL games in the stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Yes Fenwick a convention centre will attract visitors and people to the city, and questionable if they would relocate here after a visit. It would only then would they see the unfavourable economics this government has imposed and be detered away. This upsets me greatly as i too want Halifax to become the city it can be.

To explain, I know first hand as a number of my clients, large international companies are rethinking Halifax as a place to do business as the cost of doing business here is rising. If the employment pool decreases, which its likely will continue to do, then it makes it that much harder for Nova Scotia to compete.

The employment pool is not decreasing in the Halifax area, in fact both the population and employment pool in the Halifax area has increased significantly in the past 10 years (my source is Statistics Canada). The next set of data comes out on Friday, April 9

We want business to locate to Halifax. We have trade centres, we just don;t have one that will meet less 10% of the total market (Tier a) segment. I rather see 3-5 smaller convention centres that can attract the majority of the market.

I am confused by this. Halifax is hoping to compete in the tier II market (similar to Ottawa, Winnipeg ..) with the new convention centre, whereas now it is primarily competing in the tier III market. Tier I would be Toronto, Vancouver and the major US cities. How can Halifax get a majority of the market with 3-5 smaller convention centres?

If these governments were smart they would do what was original planned, expand the current trade centre into the metro centre (was designed to do this) and build a new arena. Therefore we get the best of both worlds. That i would support, and even put money behind.

As I stated previously, this is a far more expensive option and is unneeded - the current Metro Centre is an excellent facility, so why build a new one?

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I really can't see any savings in expanding the convention centre into the Metro Centre. It is already set up to be an exhibit space. To make it larger would mean ripping all the seats out which would likely cost a minimum of $50 million and would not be an attractive venue. On top of that, $100 million for a new 12,000 seat Metro Centre (not much larger than the current one).

A 25,000 - 30,000 seat economical bench style football/soccer stadium (like InfoCision Stadium in Akron, Ohio) would attract events that a hockey arena is not large enough to hold. With the new convention centre, Halifax would be able to hold medium/large size conventions, medium size concerts and hockey games/ice events (in the current Metro Centre) and large concerts/CFL games in the stadium.

Well considering the design of the existing trade centre was to do the expanison into the Metro centre some of the costs have been dealt with.

50 million is half of what we are looking to spend, so it is a savings nonetheless.

My fear is in the long run we will need to be considering, if not already, a new metro centre. So why not kill two birds with one stone?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Well considering the design of the existing trade centre was to do the expanison into the Metro centre some of the costs have been dealt with.

50 million is half of what we are looking to spend, so it is a savings nonetheless.

My fear is in the long run we will need to be considering, if not already, a new metro centre. So why not kill two birds with one stone?

Are you saying expand into the Metro Centre and keep using it as an arena also? If Halifax will need a new Metro Centre also then it will cost a lot more than just the $50 million.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Are you saying expand into the Metro Centre and keep using it as an arena also? If Halifax will need a new Metro Centre also then it will cost a lot more than just the $50 million.

I am saying expand the trade centre into the metro centre and build a new metro centre.

Right now we are going the direction of having two trade centres (with operational costs associated with them going forward) then a aging Metro centre which will need to be replaced. It won't be long before we will be talking of a new metro centre.

Therefore the current route would be more costly to the public in the longer term.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

I am saying expand the trade centre into the metro centre and build a new metro centre.

Right now we are going the direction of having two trade centres (with operational costs associated with them going forward) then a aging Metro centre which will need to be replaced. It won't be long before we will be talking of a new metro centre.

Therefore the current route would be more costly to the public in the longer term.

The Metro Centre is both a trade centre and arena; nothing has to be done to it in order to continue using it as an arena. It should not have to be replaced for another 20 years, and at that time a 15,000 seat arena could be built. What you are proposing is far more expensive and likely will not receive federal funding since the federal government normally does not contribute to arenas and stadiums unless a city attracts a major event. How can building a new Metro Centre (without federal money) plus expand the convention centre into the current Metro Centre be cheaper?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Interesting articles in the following links.

NSBJ opinion article is very well put.

http://www.atlanticfarmfocus.ca/specialsections/FarmFocus/108/pdfs/1516/

Thank you for the link. I think all the articles on the convention centre are well written. I assumed that this was all anti-convention centre whereas in fact it is quite supportive of the convention centre. Sorry for jumping to conclusions (there is hope for Halifax after all).

PS: One reason for the large NS deficit is the huge amount that the NDP is spending on roads (but they are getting $90 million from the federal government). Best to get it while the getting is good (as they say).

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Also, rarely would an academic conference be held at a convention centre

I am actually on the local organizing committee for an international scientific/medical conference that will be held here in Halifax. FYI