NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS - Page 40

Raysiri · #**781** Posted **Nov 10, 2021, 12:54 PM**

Bet they shouldn’t add more skyscrapers to complex to block the iconic Empire State Building.

k1052 · #**782** Posted **Nov 10, 2021, 1:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Oh just fucking move.

Never going to happen.

NYguy · #**783** Posted **Nov 10, 2021, 5:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052

Never going to happen.

Nope, not moving. The best to get out of the situation is a rebuilt arena. They should take advantage of any plan to remove the theater by rebuilding the entire arena with an integrated Penn Station design.

Sky88 · #**784** Posted **Nov 10, 2021, 5:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raysiri

Bet they shouldn’t add more skyscrapers to complex to block the iconic Empire State Building.

No, but additional air rights could create a possible new iconic tower like this, to be added to the New York skyline.

NYCityBoy · #**785** Posted **Nov 10, 2021, 9:55 PM**

If MSG agrees to demolish the Hulu Theater to open-up the 8th Avenue side of Penn Station that would be a huge win for the city.

jbermingham123 · #**786** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 12:22 AM**

God, imagine a CLASSY megatall there, clad with stone that roughly matches that of the ESB or Rock Center, with only right angles (to complement the city its in), and plenty of setbacks... a true modern day ESB. It would be the envy of the world

jbermingham123 · #**787** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 12:26 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYCityBoy

If MSG agrees to demolish the Hulu Theater to open-up the 8th Avenue side of Penn Station that would be a huge win for the city.

Welcome to the Forum!! This is such a fantastic first post that i didnt even notice it was a first post until i'd seen it 4 or 5 times

Also, true

MAC123 · #**788** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 12:50 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbermingham123

God, imagine a CLASSY megatall there, clad with stone that roughly matches that of the ESB or Rock Center, with only right angles (to complement the city its in), and plenty of setbacks... a true modern day ESB. It would be the envy of the world

As far as we know the tallest to rise in this area will be Penn 15.
Do they even use stone in supertalls? I have no idea about it's structural properties so I have no idea if that would be a good fit.
"plenty of setbacks..." I wonder if there's an eye roll animated face in this smiles box over here.

Busy Bee · #**789** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 1:15 AM**

I think we should pause and really absorb the seeming resignation we have come to that the need for the greatest city in the world for a true world class train station plays second fiddle to the whims of an outdated sports and entertainment complex that hosts the countries' worst NBA team, a perpetually mediocre NHL team and a hodgepodge of music acts.

NYguy · #**790** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 3:17 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I think we should pause and really absorb the seeming resignation we have come to that the need for the greatest city in the world for a true world class train station plays second fiddle to the whims of an outdated sports and entertainment complex that hosts the countries' worst NBA team, a perpetually mediocre NHL team and a hodgepodge of music acts.

Listen, no one cares for your opinions on sports teams. If that’s your best argument for moving the arena (laughable as it is), then you should just give it up. The Garden isn’t going anywhere. You start there, and your redevelopment of the station moves from that point.

Busy Bee · #**791** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 3:44 AM**

I sure wish words on a screen more effectively conveyed the humorous tone that is necessary to fully appreciate ones comment.

jbermingham123 · #**792** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 7:39 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC123

As far as we know the tallest to rise in this area will be Penn 15.

i specifically said "imagine".. i know the tallest will be 15 penn as of now

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC123

Do they even use stone in supertalls?

Just for funsies, try googling "Empire State Building" or "Chrysler Building". See what you find

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC123

I have no idea about it's structural properties so I have no idea if that would be a good fit.

I dont think you know what "clad" means

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC123

"plenty of setbacks..." I wonder if there's an eye roll animated face in this smiles box over here.

The iconic NYC architectural motifs are right angles (or at least straight lines) and setbacks, due to the manhattan street grid and the old building codes, respectively. If NYC gets a megatall at some point, it would be great if it had a specifically New York aesthetic, rather than something that could be easily pictured anywhere, like all megatalls built thus far with the exception of the Mecca Thing™

And there isnt. I've spent years looking for one

NYguy · #**793** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 9:23 PM**

Time to get back to business, as revisions to the GPP are released. Some of these changes came under Cuomo's office, and could be refined even further. But this is where we are:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

This is where the reduced density comes in, and the bulk of it seems to come from site 2, though there are still two very large towers planned on the site.

It should be pointed out (as it is usually lost in the media), that more than half of this development can be built already, under current city zoning. It's an 18 msf project, but only 7 msf of that is extra.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

Changes from the draft to the current plan...

13.

14.

15.

16.

17.

18.

19.

20.

21.

22.

23.

A mix of uses as usual to help ensure a lively streetfront...

24.

A little modification to ensure better site lines to the Empire State Building...

25.

26.

27.

28.

29.

The new train hall on 7th Avenue...

30.

31.

32.

33.

34.

35.

36.

37.

38.

39.

40.

41.

42.

43.

Timeline of approvals...

44.

It's probably silly to get into at this point (no developer has even bid on the sites), but the representative graphic of what the changes are for site 2 shows reduced density in the form of height (which again, is too early to say at this point).

45.

46.

47.

Zapatan · #**794** Posted **Nov 11, 2021, 11:08 PM**

Quote:

It's probably silly to get into at this point (no developer has even bid on the sites), but the representative graphic of what the changes are for site 2 shows reduced density in the form of height (which again, is too early to say at this point).

The density could be reduced in another way theoretically hopefully, not just height.

i.e. if I understand correctly this doesn't necessarily mean the parcel is limited to 1,250? If so, hopefully it can be 1,250 without a crown etc. as that could still yield a pretty tall building.

If it's not a final height constraint why are they even bothering with that number? In any case that looks to only be for one of the sites though, hopefully another site in this plan could yield a taller tower.

NYguy · #**795** Posted **Nov 12, 2021, 1:51 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan

The density could be reduced in another way theoretically hopefully, not just height.

i.e. if I understand correctly this doesn't necessarily mean the parcel is limited to 1,250? If so, hopefully it can be 1,250 without a crown etc. as that could still yield a pretty tall building.

If it's not a final height constraint why are they even bothering with that number? In any case that looks to only be for one of the sites though, hopefully another site in this plan could yield a taller tower.

The reason they always give heights in these situations (Cuomo originally didn't) is so it can help people "visualize" what could be built. But I think that's the wrong approach, because even here on a skyscraper forum where we know better, it can confuse some. Reducing the density in theory reduces the height. But if there are no height limits outright, it doesn't really mean anything. You would have to do something along the lines of what they did at the WTC.

The best they could do is limit the FAR, which is the old fashioned way of limiting how high a building can rise on a given site. So, as you can see here, site 2A, which was to be the largest tower, took the biggest hit (from 36 to 26!). Likewise, the massing was reversed again on site 2 with the larger tower being on 7th Avenue. They want the towers to scale down in height, which doesn't make any sense when you consider there's a whole Hudson Yards to the west. What also doesn't make sense is trying to reduce the density around Penn Station in the first place. But politicians try to appease people, people who have no appetite to be appeased. They won't care about this "height cut". They want the whole thing scrapped.

And it looks like no change at all on sites 4, 7, and 8.

NYguy · #**796** Posted **Nov 15, 2021, 6:03 PM**

https://www.crainsnewyork.com/commer...-penn-district

Madison Square Garden doubles down on Penn District

NATALIE SACHMECHI
Nov 15, 2021

Quote:

Madison Square Garden Entertainment has inked a deal for a 428,000-square-foot headquarters at Penn 2 as local lawmakers consider relocating its eponymous entertainment complex to make way for a redeveloped Penn Station.

The 20-year deal will keep the company at the site where it currently has offices while Vornado Realty Trust redevelops the office building to a Class A tower. The real estate investment trust owns 10 million square feet in the Penn District.

As part of the transformation of the area, Vornado is redeveloping several office buildings, including the Farley Building, where Facebook has leased space, and Penn 1 as well as demolishing the Hotel Pennsylvania to build office tower Penn 15. The Penn 2 redevelopment will include a new entrance to Madison Square Garden when completed in 2023.

Quote:

MSG’s lease for the sports and music venue expires in 2023, when its special permit runs out, but it’s not certain whether the City Council will renew it. The permit was granted for 10 years in 2013 so Madison Square Garden’s owner could find it a new home.

Earlier this month Gov. Kathy Hochul announced modified plans for the Penn Station redevelopment that keep the arena where it is but require its Hulu Theater to be demolished. The proposal also calls for MSG to have a new entrance on Eighth Avenue across from Moynihan Train Hall.

NYCityBoy · #**797** Posted **Nov 15, 2021, 7:29 PM**

This is huge news and confirms what I consider to be a win-win. MSG stays and Eighth Avenue get much needed pedestrian-friendly improvements.

MSG has to be considering recladding the exterior of the Garden. They could really do something groundbreaking if they hire the right architects for the job.

Busy Bee · #**798** Posted **Nov 15, 2021, 7:37 PM**

Things gettin interesting...

My money's on moving... Don't care what the myopics on here say.

NYguy · #**799** Posted **Nov 15, 2021, 8:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYCityBoy

MSG has to be considering recladding the exterior of the Garden. They could really do something groundbreaking if they hire the right architects for the job.

When (if) the theater is removed, and with all the upcoming construction of and around Penn Station, they should do a full rebuild.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

My money's on moving... Don't care what the myopics on here say.

Nobody cares what you have to say either, but your money, your loss.

NYguy · #**800** Posted **Nov 15, 2021, 8:46 PM**

https://chelseacommunitynews.com/202...er-15-21-2021/

Quote:

Monday, November 15, 7pm via Zoom: Empire Station Complex Forum

The Chelsea Reform Democratic Club (CRDC) presents this forum that ponders the future of the massive project proposed by former governor Andrew Cuomo, whose bulldoze-and-build plan for the area near Penn Station was met with resistance (a polite term for derision) from electeds, preservationists, fiscal conservatives, and, oh yeah, the people whose property would be seized by invoking eminent domain.

The project is now in the hands of New York State Governor Kathy Hochul, whose first press conference public comment on her proposed reset presented a scenario calling for far less of a scaleback than opponents were hoping for.

Knew those nuts would’t be happy with smaller towers. It’s why you can’t just try to appease people.