[Saint John, NB] Lorneville | Spruce Lake Industrial Park Expansion | +1500 acres

[adamuptownsj]

Shovlin asked what residents consider fair community compensation. The two were not given a figure, with some saying the best compensation would be for the project to not go forward.

“I think the fair amount is our wetland intact and our ancient 400-year-old trees left standing,” Alexander said to applause.

“You can't replace these. You can't replace our quality of life. You can't replace the use of hiking trails and quiet oceanside community. You will not replace that."

There are no hiking trails here. Maybe an ATV trail or two. Perfect example of why these guys achieved nothing more than an atypically wide buffer. Should have asked for specific parts of the site, along with as much of the coastal strip as possible, to be gifted to the Nature Conservancy. Or try to finagle a handoff of the land west of the transmission lines by Coleson Cove to the same.

[Uptowngal]

I agree @adamuptownsj. Environmental Impact Assessments are a planning tool to allow projects to proceed with adequate mitigations. They are not meant to stop/block projects. I previously reached out to the Lorneville group to recommend that they come up with some suggestions for community benefits. If their suggestions are reasonable, then they'd likely be implemented. But if they just want to try to block the project, they will probably be unsuccessful and also miss out on the opportunity to suggest the community benefits they'd like to see.

[sailor734]

^ I agree. I don't see this project being stopped by an EIA. The opponent's best practical outcome would see them getting as much as they can in the way of mitigation and community benefits.

[sailor734]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/lorneville-saint-john-data-centre-9.6974115

Predictably, the two Green MLA's are raising lots of objections to both the data centre and the NG generating plant near Sackville.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by sailor734

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/lorneville-saint-john-data-centre-9.6974115

Predictably, the two Green MLA's are raising lots of objections to both the data centre and the NG generating plant near Sackville.

Yes, I don't think that is a great surprise. However, I don't think their point is entirely without merit; we do need to understand the power requirements and consequences of this proposal.

The conspiracy that we are building this gas plant to power the data centre is silly, though, as NB Power was working on the gas plant before the data centre was even on the radar. The timing of them both being scrutinized simultaneously isn't ideal, though and is convenient for opponents.

I also think people are oversimplifying this. They are picturing that we have persistent power shortages, and the data centre will suck up all the new power the gas plant will provide. The reality is that most of the time we have sufficient power for the data centre, especially with some of the new renewable projects coming online.

It is during specific windows —when Lepreau is offline, the wind isn't blowing, or we have a deep cold period —that the grid is being stretched. This is when the gas plant is crucial. As long as the project doesn't negatively impact those periods, there shouldn't be major concerns.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by sailor734

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/lorneville-saint-john-data-centre-9.6974115

Predictably, the two Green MLA's are raising lots of objections to both the data centre and the NG generating plant near Sackville.

Yeah, you have to wonder if anyone on the Green "team" has any sense of current public opinion regarding this project.

Yes, there are locals in Lorneville against it, but the popular opinion Province-wide is that the economy is a top issue. I'd even dare to say that the Liberals haven't truly grasped this yet, as they continue on their healthcare bandwagon.

That was a major concern at the last election and I get that, but if you were to survey the vast majority of New Brunswicker's today, I think they've moved on from that and are more concerned about tariffs, potential job losses, and the cost of living.

I think healthcare and the environment have fallen down the ladder significantly in the past few months given what is the going on with the US. So sticking to these two narratives could backfire in the eyes of the majority of voters. But that is just my opinion.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

I think the Green Party isn't doing themselves any favours with their more centrist voters with this type of hyperbolic opposition. MLA Mitton has been quite consistent with labelling these proposals from pro MAGA companies, but what exactly are the alternatives?

I'm all for investing in way more wind, solar, geothermal, a second reactor at Lepreau, you name it, but we do need some good, quick, reliable backup power sources. We're pretty lucky here in Saint John with Saint John Energy and proximity to Point Lepreau and other major generating stations, but lots of New Brunswickers have had a lot of problems with power outages... and we're not exactly going to be opening up new coal power plants.

What bugs me about this plan to use "fracked gas" to generate power (as Mitton put it) is that we aren't fracking our own gas here in NB, of which we have more than enough to develop here in NB. I don't think natural gas is an environmentally friendly generating source, but it could be a significant economic opportunity for New Brunswick as natural gas has it's moment as a transition fossil fuel as the world tries to ween itself off fossil fuels and decarbonize.

As for healthcare, maybe Lorneville residents should be pushing for some sort of community care clinic. While I agree many NBers without health issues see the economy as the #1 priority at the moment, many NBers do have health issues or family members with health issues that have been let down by the healthcare system.

Perhaps the provincial government needs to do a better job reminding people that we need steady economic growth and economic development to not just fix the healthcare system, but invest in a better healthcare system.

[JakeNB]

When you consider the fact that NB has lost many large industrial power users over the past number of years - Brunswick Mines, Belledune Smelter, Stone Consolidated, Repap paper mill, 1/2 Irving Paper, etc. - surely we can supply a data center.

[bingun]

N.B. Power wants flexibility from power-hungry data centres

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/nb-power-flexibility-data-centres-9.6984931

He said the utility will want agreements with data centres that would have them shut down, or rely exclusively on their own on-site power generation or battery storage, during peak demand periods.

“We're really leaning in to say, ‘Can we do flexible arrangements with these types of customers in a way that makes sense for New Brunswick?’” he said.

“If the answer is yes, then we have a pathway ahead. If the answer is no, maybe it's a check and adjustment, and further conversations need to be had.”

Volta Grid CEO Nathan Ough told CBC News the Lorneville data centre’s on-site gas generation could even feed electricity back to the grid when there’s a peak in demand.

“Don’t view data centres as this kind of demand hog,” Ough told CBC News.

“Now data centres are no longer a pure demand source. They’re a demand-slash-supply source.”

[sailor734]

I can't imagine that would be something any data centre would be very keen on. Isn't security and reliability of power supply a prime consideration when choosing a location?

[bingun]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I can't imagine that would be something any data centre would be very keen on. Isn't security and reliability of power supply a prime consideration when choosing a location?

I had similar thoughts when I read it. It's not like people stop using the internet when it's cold out. However, on second thought, it depends on what the data centre is doing specifically.

If it is training AI models, the computing may not be as time-sensitive as a real-time application. They may also be able to balance things out with other data centres.

However, if it were me, I would want some concessions from NB Power if I agreed to that model.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I can't imagine that would be something any data centre would be very keen on. Isn't security and reliability of power supply a prime consideration when choosing a location?

I feel like NB Power is mostly referring to the other data centres and crypto mining operations in the province, which for the most part don't have anything other than minimal on-site backup generators for emergency use. The proposed one in Lorneville will have significant power generation capacity so it shouldn't be an issue.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Considering how much money they’re spending to have on site power generation for the proposal, I don’t think they’ll have a problem using it. Question is, how will they know when is a peak time?

Would still like to know what NB Power’s long term plans are for nearby Coleson Cove. Could it be converted from oil fired to natural gas? Or could it be converted to some sort of battery storage facility?

I hope Spruce Lake Industrial Park looks to install solar capacity throughout the park. Fog or no fog, that’s a lot of space for solar capacity.

[bingun]

They have their own power generation, but it's only about 50% of the maximum power requirements, so it's a question of whether they can scale down their power needs during select periods when demand peaks. As I said in the previous post, I think it will depend on what it is specifically doing.

I want to say that some of the other major power consumers in the province have similar agreements, too. I thought I read something about NB Power asking the mills to slow down or switch to their own generation when things were getting dicey one time.

[paperplane]

If they require 380MW to run, are going to generate 190MW themselves with their NG power plant, and get 190MW from the grid, I don't understand how they at times might be able to put energy back into the grid from what they generate.

As well as what was previously said, how can they throttle down their power needs if NBP requires them to based on grid demand? Would they really want to sign an agreement to not be able to operate fully, especially when they're beholden to whoever their large corporation user is?

There seems to be a lot of questions and wishy-washy details so far.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by paperplane

If they require 380MW to run, are going to generate 190MW themselves with their NG power plant, and get 190MW from the grid, I don't understand how they at times might be able to put energy back into the grid from what they generate.

As well as what was previously said, how can they throttle down their power needs if NBP requires them to based on grid demand? Would they really want to sign an agreement to not be able to operate fully, especially when they're beholden to whoever their large corporation user is?

There seems to be a lot of questions and wishy-washy details so far.

It is important not to see the power consumption as linear or constant, like a manufacturing facility. A simple example would be a data centre for business software applications, let's say accounting.

During the day, the servers would be using lots of power while everyone is working, processing transactions and running reports. However, after hours or overnight, usage will drop off, and so will the power requirements.

During that lull in activity, in theory, there might be excess power generation that isn't required, though I am pretty skeptical it's practical or economical to put it back into the grid.

If this is for AI, there are two options: either it's used to train models, which takes a long time and requires a lot of computing power, or it's used to respond to user queries, which is more of a real-time application. People aren't asking ChatGPT questions at a consistent rate throughout the day; there are busy and quiet times.

[paperplane]

Originally Posted by bingun

It is important not to see the power consumption as linear or constant, like a manufacturing facility. A simple example would be a data centre for business software applications, let's say accounting.

During the day, the servers would be using lots of power while everyone is working, processing transactions and running reports. However, after hours or overnight, usage will drop off, and so will the power requirements.

During that lull in activity, in theory, there might be excess power generation that isn't required, though I am pretty skeptical it's practical or economical to put it back into the grid.

If this is for AI, there are two options: either it's used to train models, which takes a long time and requires a lot of computing power, or it's used to respond to user queries, which is more of a real-time application. People aren't asking ChatGPT questions at a consistent rate throughout the day; there are busy and quiet times.

Yes, but if they require 190MW from grid, that means they'd need to have >190MW of decreased usage ( greater than half) to be able to put self-generated power back into the grid.

Would they really have situations that they'd be running at greater than half capacity?

Also, I believe it was stated by Nathan on the facebook live stream that the power they generate would only be used for them and not transferred to the grid, so this news about them possibly contributing to the grid seems odd.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by paperplane

Yes, but if they require 190MW from grid, that means they'd need to have >190MW of decreased usage ( greater than half) to be able to put self-generated power back into the grid.

Would they really have situations that they'd be running at greater than half capacity?

Also, I believe it was stated by Nathan on the facebook live stream that the power they generate would only be used for them and not transferred to the grid, so this news about them possibly contributing to the grid seems odd.

I agree with you; I don't think it's practical. I think he's just saying that to make it seem like they are open to the opportunity and willing to work with NB Power. Typical big business CEO talk to smooth things over.

[paperplane]

Sure seems like Mel is running for Mayor.

Saint John is once again at the centre of a conversation about economic development, technology and energy.

A proposed $2-billion AI/data-centre campus at Spruce Lake Industrial Park has attracted significant attention – and for good reason. Projects of this scale are rare in Atlantic Canada.

They bring potential benefits, real trade-offs and important questions about how we grow as a community.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by paperplane

Sure seems like Mel is running for Mayor.

I don't believe this is the case at all. Not that I'd be opposed to either Norton in office.