Jericho Lands Planning Program

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by mukmuk64

If there's anything the city should be leading the way on here with developer following direction it should be the issue of where the Skytrain goes on the site.

The Skytrain site location has implications on much more than just the Jericho land development.

Given that this project is going to have more people living in it than the whole of the rest of West Point Grey, putting the transit and higher densities of activity in close proximity seems sensible. Both of the design concepts have three towers near the transit, in the south-west quadrant, with the station roughly halfway between 4th and 8th Avenues, on the pedestrian/bike route through the site. (Presumably another station is possible near the eastern side of the site). Why would the City think it's not a good placement? I really don't see 'close to the beach' as being important compared to how it serves the residential and local centre locations. (This sort of density will also help support extending Mobi further west into Kitsilano and to here.) There's going to be a lot of kicking and screaming about this much density in the area. I don't see any appetite for reopening the Local Plan and adding significant density except perhaps some close to any station locations. Having the station in the centre of the site makes that one less battle to fight.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

It's hard to grasp how large this part of Vancouver really is, as for example if (when) there is a station at Broadway/Alma, it wouldn't be close enough to provide the required service range for the Jericho Lands, ditto for one at Sasamat.

Why are people so invested in having a station at Sasamat - it's not as if it's some major high street filled with a lot of retail. The 9 Broadway bus will still travel through there and locals will still go there for some of their shopping. Also I'd be really surprised if there's zero retail on the Jericho site. The next station could just as easily be at the Blanca Loop.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Why are people so invested in having a station at Sasamat - it's not as if it's some major high street filled with a lot of retail. The 9 Broadway bus will still travel through there and locals will still go there for some of their shopping. Also I'd be really surprised if there's zero retail on the Jericho site. The next station could just as easily be at the Blanca Loop.

There seems to be quite a lot of retail and office planned; it's 10,000,000 of development but 9,000,000 of the space will residential.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Why are people so invested in having a station at Sasamat - it's not as if it's some major high street filled with a lot of retail. The 9 Broadway bus will still travel through there and locals will still go there for some of their shopping. Also I'd be really surprised if there's zero retail on the Jericho site. The next station could just as easily be at the Blanca Loop.

Because if Sasamat is skippable, Blanca is even more so. How many passengers need to see the Golf Museum? The 4 could just as easily head east to Sasamat and terminate there instead, and then TransLink could sell the loop.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Why are people so invested in having a station at Sasamat

UBCers know it as the corner with the 4 banks - so in their minds, it's a commercial centre, even if it isn't a big commercial area anymore.

Ultimately, any NIMBY West Point Grey residents should be applauding the shift of station location as it takes development pressure away from West 10th Ave.

[dleung]

I suspect they put the station so far into the middle of the site (away from any major streets ) to avoid offending wealthy litigious homeowners nearby, whereas the sensible location obviously would've been along 8th ave near Discovery St, which in their design has a straight sight line into the heart of the densest part, while remaining within a reasonable walking distance from Sasamat. Heck they could cut and cover that whole segment just north of 8th ave. and not have to work the buildings around the tunnel alignment (it doesn't even look like that's been considered)

[jollyburger]

It's more likely in the middle of the site because of the elevation change and being in the center of the property is closer to more of the site versus sticking it on the border of it.

[dleung]

I'm assuming the only station west of Jericho would be UBC, a separate station at Sasamat or Blanca being overkill. The site is big, but no so big that a station at the SW corner can't service the entire western half (all within a 5-6 min walk, with the densest parts within 200m), while Alma station can serve the eastern half of the site. The grade change is inevitable towards UBC - the station can have a upper level western entrance better suited to Sasamat and a lower level eastern entrance facing the development. One big/deep station with multiple entrances is still cheaper than 2 stations. I'd imagine the station is where a cut-and cover tunnel transitions into a bored tunnel westward.

[Feathered Friend]

Originally Posted by dleung

I'm assuming the only station west of Jericho would be UBC, a separate station at Sasamat or Blanca being overkill. The site is big, but no so big that a station at the SW corner can't service the entire western half (all within a 5-6 min walk, with the densest parts within 200m), while Alma station can serve the eastern half of the site. The grade change is inevitable towards UBC - the station can have a upper level western entrance better suited to Sasamat and a lower level eastern entrance facing the development. One big/deep station with multiple entrances is still cheaper than 2 stations. I'd imagine the station is where a cut-and cover tunnel transitions into a bored tunnel westward.

There's several problems with that though.

First and foremost is that Translink uses a 400m distance measurement rather than 500m, which means your station locations fail to provide even adequate coverage for a good chunk of the site, and/or the surrounding neighbourhood.

Plus, since most of the density is on the lower portion of the site, forcing people to climb that hill to get anywhere would be a huge barrier.


pg 42
https://www.translink.ca/-/media/tra...guidelines.pdf

[scryer]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Ultimately, any NIMBY West Point Grey residents should be applauding the shift of station location as it takes development pressure away from West 10th Ave.

Very true. But I also think it's more short-term pressure relief that entirely depends on the alignment to UBC west of Jericho.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

There's several problems with that though.

First and foremost is that Translink uses a 400m distance measurement rather than 500m, which means your station locations fail to provide even adequate coverage for a good chunk of the site, and/or the surrounding neighbourhood.

Plus, since most of the density is on the lower portion of the site, forcing people to climb that hill to get anywhere would be a huge barrier.


pg 42
https://www.translink.ca/-/media/tra...guidelines.pdf

Yeah, but in practice Alma to Macdonald is 1.3km, Macdonald to Arbutus is 1.1km, Arbutus to Granville is 1km. Jericho is dense, but no reason why the station spacing will go down to 800m here of all places.

It might be worth it to regrade part of the site at the station to get the upper/lower entrances and hide more of the adjacent density while maintaining views from the park northwest:

[jollyburger]

The only reason the station is being placed there is because of this development so they'll have the most influence on where the station goes.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by dleung

Yeah, but in practice Alma to Macdonald is 1.3km, Macdonald to Arbutus is 1.1km, Arbutus to Granville is 1km. Jericho is dense, but no reason why the station spacing will go down to 800m here of all places.

Lansdowne-Brighouse, Gilmore-Brentwood and Patterson-Metrotown are each 700m. Exceptions can (and likely will) be made.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Lansdowne-Brighouse, Gilmore-Brentwood and Patterson-Metrotown are each 700m. Exceptions can (and likely will) be made.

Patterson and Metrotown are so close (and more like 800m) because Patterson station was originally supposed to be near Kingsway and Boundary - that would have put it closer to 1.5km away (using google maps for the math). It's why there's a longer than average spacing between Joyce and Patterson stations.

Wherever they put these stations, I think it's a safe bet there will be one at Broadway and Alma, then one somewhere on the Jericho lands, and then another station before the long trek that takes it to somewhere around where the current UBC bus loop is now. There have been rumblings about where else on the UBC lands there could be other station(s) but that's a ways out and still in fantasy planning.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Ditto Rupert and Gilmore, because Boundary is too close to the Trans-Canada. We're on the same page: there's no hard 1km minimum for station distancing.

[dleung]

Of course, and it would be great if they can afford a station here AND at Sasamat, but it doesn't seem realistic, in which case the station needs to cover as much ground as possible. Maybe I have higher hopes for future densification of the blocks facing 10th Ave than realistic given what we know about Point Grey.

Much would depend on scheduling... I would hope the UBC extension is done within 10 years and this at the same time, because if the development finishes first, getting the line and station into the middle of the site afterwards will be complicated/expensive. If it comes after, will they just have nothing between Alma and UBC with a rough-in for a future station in the middle of the green space for years?

[Feathered Friend]

As has been stated, and as the Wikipedia page for SkyTrain shows, based on past precedent, there's nothing unrealistic about securing funding for a Sasamat, Jericho, and Alma Stations given the distance, and/or density that would be served.

Assuming a UBC line is fully funded within 5 years, there's no reason to think that they wouldn't rough in a station at Jericho (assuming it was selected to host a station location). This isn't like the Canada Line where the urban planning came after the system was built, so it's not an apples to apples comparison.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The Canada Line got watered down by politics. As it is, Derek Corrigan's gone, and City Council and the Mayors Council are on board. I doubt anybody important will care about an extra $200 mil more or less, especially if it's for a good cause.

[WarrenC12]

Big changes to Kits with the Skytrain extension, Senakw, and now this in the 2025-2030 time frame. The beach will be so busy that nobody will go anymore.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Wouldn't want to be in a bus on 4th after fireworks night, that's for sure.