Budweiser Gardens? WTF?

[MolsonExport]

Excellent local (St. Thomas) Ale:

railwaycitybrewing.com

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by ForestryW

Where'd you do this? I'm just curious, I'd love to try it as well.

Some of my favourite beers are local Ontario craft beers. I'd say the best are:
-Muskoka Brewery Mad Tom IPA
-Great Lakes Brewery Devil's Pale Ale.

Railway City in St. Thomas is pretty decent and it's London's local craft brewery!

Just did it with some friends.

For example, go to the LCBO and buy say 24 singles of different beers. Then you split it with say 6 people (so 4 beers a person) with a person or two who doesn't drink (or DD) who prepares the brew behind the scenes. They pour a randomly selected beer into 6 cups and bring it out for you to taste. They indicate in on piece of paper what beer they poured for reference later.

You then drink the beer and give it a score /10 on a piece of paper and other comments if you want. Then you eat some peanuts/pretzels and drink some water to clear your palette to prepare for the next one. Repeat until they're all done.

When all the sampling is done the results are revealed by the person who prepared the beer. You then compare your scores to each brew and tally it up in a chart like I did on the previous page. You might be astonished about some beers you loved and others you hated. That's what happens when the label/branding isn't there.

One of my buddies is a huge fan of Stella and drank multiple beers saying "Oh THIS one is definitely Stella". Turns out he gave the beer that was Stella a 2/10 and beers he thought was Stella were brews like Lakeport which he gave like a 9/10. He now buys a lot of Lakeport because it turns out he likes it .

Anyways a bit off topic but its a fun exercise and can change what you think is beer you like and beer you hate.

-----

Dead Elephant Ale is a little strong for my taste, but I really like Iron Spike from Railway City.

[jammer139]

Looks like they are revisiting the plans from a few years ago to upgrade Budweiser Gardens. The back of the house limitations have been a long standing issue and a renovation was in the works to rebuild the west end of the building where there is a small parking lot now. This would add much needed new space for loading docks and reworked change rooms for both sports teams and shows.


https://london.ctvnews.ca/reinvestme...city-1.6316044

[MolsonExport]

I hope they rename it "John Labatt Centre" (I know this will never happen). Much better than Buttwisser Gardens (King of Rears) and their steer piss product.

[ssiguy]

I hope they fix the ugly Dundas Street frontage to allow a couple street facing shops. Right now it looks like a wall.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I hope they fix the ugly Dundas Street frontage to allow a couple street facing shops. Right now it looks like a wall.

They could so something to fix up the exterior but they can't convert the blank wall space at the west end of Dundas frontage into retail because of the use inside the building. Namely the Knights dressing room and the technical spaces to the west of that. As you move east where the windows are, that's arena concourse space so converting that to street front retail would take away from interior space during events.

[GreatTallNorth2]

If they are smart, they will try to add more seats. Ideally the arena would be closer to 12,000 if we ever hope to get larger events like the World Juniors. Kitchener Waterloo will be either expanding their arena or building a new larger one down the road (the council has already studied it). Also it would be great to see the entire block used, maybe incorporating commercial/retail and a hotel.

[Djeffery]

If they are doing construction on the west side, I would like to see them finish the upper bowl. I'm not sure if there is demand for more suites around that end as well but maybe the addition of a party deck under the upper bowl where the standing room area is now. I don't know what that adds for seats, maybe another 1000-1500. Those wouldn't really do much for concerts since those are back of the stage and usually not sold, but the extra sports capacity would be handy. I'm not sure there is a really feasible way to add more seats elsewhere that isn't going to cost huge dollars that might not be justifiable. I'm also unsure if we are missing out on any concerts that we would get with only a few thousand more seats. We do okay with big names now and those that don't come now won't come for 12000, we would need 17000.

Vic Cote from the city really tried to get this place built larger but the prevailing thought at the time was 9000 was pushing it and even the Knights were only asking for 6500. I know they said back then that cost wise, it wasn't just a linear per seat cost. That once you went past this 9000-ish range, the cost of the building would skyrocket. Benefit of hindsight but I bet 12-14k seats would have been an easy sell if anyone in power thought this place would take off like it did.

[GreatTallNorth2]

I would not see a point in investing much if you are not going to attract the bigger events. And if the city is going to be asked for another $50 million or whatever, I think that money could be spent on far better things that would attract people to the core - like a proper museum, aquarium, etc.

[Djeffery]

I mean, I would certainly be in favour of them expanding the seating on the west side if they are already rebuilding that end of the structure to expand the back of house, or at least looking into what it would cost to finish that upper deck in the course of doing that work. Those seats would certainly be used for most Knights games and any other large sporting events. And would help in the bids for future WJC (I have to think London has as good a chance in the not too distant future for that as we have had in the last 20 years), and other large sporting events (the Knights have to be thinking of when to bid on the Memorial Cup again). Plus that back of house will make the venue more attractive for future editions of the type of events we have already held, like award shows or world figure skating championships. Interesting that during the Brier, I didn't see the big tent in that west parking lot like I have seen for past events though.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Updated information about Bud Gardens so called expansion. They are asking for $33 million to add storage space to the arena. No thanks unless there is major seating added for bigger events.

https://london.ctvnews.ca/budweiser-...sion-1.6403089

[jammer139]

I agree for that kind of money the renovation MUST include the completion of upper bowl seating on the west end of building. If it doesn't then it is a show stopper and a big no thanks.


Sadly they made the compromise with the original build not to go larger at around 14,000 seating with full bowl seating. They had the entire block as a footprint for the building to work with. Lessons learned as they would have sold out Knights games at 14,000 every Friday night. Hindsight is 20/20.


I suspect KW will no doubt build a new arena downtown that will be in the 12-18,000 seating range to replace the ageing Memorial Arena.

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Updated information about Bud Gardens so called expansion. They are asking for $33 million to add storage space to the arena. No thanks unless there is major seating added for bigger events.

https://london.ctvnews.ca/budweiser-...sion-1.6403089

[MrSlippery519]

They are asking tax payers to pick up 80% of this cost, realistically what would the business case be on that pay back? I would be all for seeing them do this expansion in addition to finishing the upper bowl, that work would push the budget at least into the 100 million range.
I believe the overall benefit to the facility and payback case would be much more substantial.

[Djeffery]

Yes hindsight is 20/20 but 25 years ago there was no way to even contemplate the Knights would sell 9000 seats a game for more than 20 years running. They weren't even selling 5000 a game at the old place. They hoped for 6500, which is where the sizes of the lower and upper levels came from and they figured they would have the curtain most games. There was also no way to figure that in the middle of Detroit, Hamilton, Buffalo and Toronto that the concert scene would explode in London the way it did.

What if 9000 was the Knights top end even if there were 14000 seats that cost triple to build (the proposals from back then had costs escalating rapidly beyond the 9000 seats, it wasn't just a case of 50% more seats cost 50% more than 9000). Perhaps the Knights would have drawn less as there wasn't the pressure to buy seasons tickets if you knew there was always thousands of seats available on game day. "Oh it's snowing hard, don't want to walk, let's go another day". I wish it was built larger as well but I certainly understand why it wasn't either.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Yes hindsight is 20/20 but 25 years ago there was no way to even contemplate the Knights would sell 9000 seats a game for more than 20 years running. They weren't even selling 5000 a game at the old place. They hoped for 6500, which is where the sizes of the lower and upper levels came from and they figured they would have the curtain most games. There was also no way to figure that in the middle of Detroit, Hamilton, Buffalo and Toronto that the concert scene would explode in London the way it did.

What if 9000 was the Knights top end even if there were 14000 seats that cost triple to build (the proposals from back then had costs escalating rapidly beyond the 9000 seats, it wasn't just a case of 50% more seats cost 50% more than 9000). Perhaps the Knights would have drawn less as there wasn't the pressure to buy seasons tickets if you knew there was always thousands of seats available on game day. "Oh it's snowing hard, don't want to walk, let's go another day". I wish it was built larger as well but I certainly understand why it wasn't either.

Yeah but the whole point of the arena was that it was not just a "barn" for the Knights. A lot of people said it needed to be expandable to 12,000 or more seats. If Halifax and Saskatoon can have arenas that can host the World Juniors and those cities built those facilities 30-40 years ago, why can London not have the same foresight? Yes we cannot change that now, but now the question is this: how much real benefit will we get out of a $33 million dollar upgrade? If there are no added seats, we won't actually get the bigger events we want. And if that is the case, why throw that money away?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Yeah but the whole point of the arena was that it was not just a "barn" for the Knights. A lot of people said it needed to be expandable to 12,000 or more seats. If Halifax and Saskatoon can have arenas that can host the World Juniors and those cities built those facilities 30-40 years ago, why can London not have the same foresight? Yes we cannot change that now, but now the question is this: how much real benefit will we get out of a $33 million dollar upgrade? If there are no added seats, we won't actually get the bigger events we want. And if that is the case, why throw that money away?

Of course it wasn't a barn for the Knights or it would have been built a lot smaller like they wanted. There wasn't a will on council to spend over $100 million on the arena at the time, after doing such other projects as the library and market. Halifax and Saskatoon also don't have Toronto, Detroit and other cities I mentioned within 120 miles. I am interested to see what it is they want to do that costs $33million though.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Halifax and Saskatoon also don't have Toronto, Detroit and other cities I mentioned within 120 miles. I am interested to see what it is they want to do that costs $33million though.

That's essentially London's problem in a nutshell. We are a big city, bigger than both Halifax and Saskatoon but we think like a small city. I know someone who moved from Calgary to London and they said London has all the problems of a larger city but none of the benefits. We rely on Toronto for all the attractions and entertainment, yet we are supposed to be the central city for this part of Ontario.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Yes hindsight is 20/20 but 25 years ago there was no way to even contemplate the Knights would sell 9000 seats a game for more than 20 years running. They weren't even selling 5000 a game at the old place. They hoped for 6500, which is where the sizes of the lower and upper levels came from and they figured they would have the curtain most games. There was also no way to figure that in the middle of Detroit, Hamilton, Buffalo and Toronto that the concert scene would explode in London the way it did.

What if 9000 was the Knights top end even if there were 14000 seats that cost triple to build (the proposals from back then had costs escalating rapidly beyond the 9000 seats, it wasn't just a case of 50% more seats cost 50% more than 9000). Perhaps the Knights would have drawn less as there wasn't the pressure to buy seasons tickets if you knew there was always thousands of seats available on game day. "Oh it's snowing hard, don't want to walk, let's go another day". I wish it was built larger as well but I certainly understand why it wasn't either.

I agree with what you are saying here, but would add the point is that now we do know the top end is higher than 9000. If a renovation is going to happen to help the back end, staging, dressing rooms, etc be expanded why not shoot bigger and expand the upper bowl at the same time?
This will then allow the facility to support those events that need better space inside for equipment and it will allow the city to bid on larger events that we miss out on today as capacity would be in the 12K range

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by MrSlippery519

I agree with what you are saying here, but would add the point is that now we do know the top end is higher than 9000. If a renovation is going to happen to help the back end, staging, dressing rooms, etc be expanded why not shoot bigger and expand the upper bowl at the same time?
This will then allow the facility to support those events that need better space inside for equipment and it will allow the city to bid on larger events that we miss out on today as capacity would be in the 12K range

Yeah I agree that if the money is being spent and it includes a bigger capacity, I am actually all for that. If all they are doing is adding storage space and updating the arena (without any capacity change) then I say spend nothing. That money could be spent in much better ways.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Yeah I agree that if the money is being spent and it includes a bigger capacity, I am actually all for that. If all they are doing is adding storage space and updating the arena (without any capacity change) then I say spend nothing. That money could be spent in much better ways.

Exactly my argument, if they want to spend 33 million to do just that and 80% is coming from taxpayers, what is the payback? It is going to generate how much added revenue per year getting maybe 1 or 2 new events that they may have missed out on before?
Just seems like if they are going to do a reno lets do it properly.