340 Parkdale Ave | 127m | 38f | Proposed

[waterloowarrior]

Considering the reception The Artisan got I don't know how far this will get
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=180638

[Ottawan]

This is wrong, wrong, wrong. The height/density in itself isn't the problem to me (that will surprise few on this board), it is the elimination of what must be heritage industrial buildings. The actual site where the Artisan had been proposed is appropriate for development in my opinion, but the rest of that block contains one of few remnants of Ottawa's industrial past - buildings which complement the unique district that is contained between Parkdale and Holland, Wellington and Scott.

The Parkdale Market Lofts (immediately to the north of this proposed development, accross Spencer) incorporated/converted a portion of industrial warehousing into heritage lofts attached to a new condo tower. IMO that would be the most appropriate form of development on this site as well.

[S-Man]

Agree with McC, waterloowarrior and Fraser completely.

Tega Homes? Have they ever built a concrete building over 4 storeys? Not saying they can't, but usually developers build up their projects over time.

When I visualized the location, I though 'Why couldn't this be moved a bit north to a Tunney's Pasture parcel, or to Bayview, both of which are close and would actually have a chance of being built?' When that Artisan project or whatever it was called came out, the community seemed willing to accept 8 storeys, but 9 storeys 'would overwhelm the community and be totally unacceptable'.

I don't have to guess their reaction to this!

[HintonburgCA]

The HCA is formulating its response, but thousands of hours over several years have gone in to developing both a Neighbourhood Planning Initiative and the just-passed Community Design Plan, both with City buy-in. If this were ever approved, the City could probably never in good faith suggest a community consultation again - it would simply be a bald-faced lie that it has any interest in holistic planning. What will probably trip this project up - if it's not financing again like the last overly-ambitious crew who couldn't match their plans with actual lenders - will be the Official Plan. We worked hard several years ago to incorporate a clause in the plan that says height increases in Mixed Use Centres have to be gradual from the edge in. The immediate neighbours across Parkdale are an area of two-story homes. These guys will need an Official Plan amendment, and I don't like their chances. It's an ad hoc proposal out of context with anything either going on in the neighbourhood right now or with long-term planning that has community, developer, and City buy-in.

One of these days, an experienced builder with the resources to match plans for "iconic and brash" development with actual world-leading architects will come along and be able to find financing for their project and political support. Then we'll be f&%ed. This, obviously, is not that builder.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by HintonburgCA

The HCA is formulating its response, but thousands of hours over several years have gone in to developing both a Neighbourhood Planning Initiative and the just-passed Community Design Plan, both with City buy-in. If this were ever approved, the City could probably never in good faith suggest a community consultation again - it would simply be a bald-faced lie that it has any interest in holistic planning. What will probably trip this project up - if it's not financing again like the last overly-ambitious crew who couldn't match their plans with actual lenders - will be the Official Plan. We worked hard several years ago to incorporate a clause in the plan that says height increases in Mixed Use Centres have to be gradual from the edge in. The immediate neighbours across Parkdale are an area of two-story homes. These guys will need an Official Plan amendment, and I don't like their chances. It's an ad hoc proposal out of context with anything either going on in the neighbourhood right now or with long-term planning that has community, developer, and City buy-in.

One of these days, an experienced builder with the resources to match plans for "iconic and brash" development with actual world-leading architects will come along and be able to find financing for their project and political support. Then we'll be f&%ed. This, obviously, is not that builder.

You could have the worlds best architect come have great plans for a 30 floor building but people would still be aginst it because of the height.

[m0nkyman]

Originally Posted by reidjr

You could have the worlds best architect come have great plans for a 30 floor building but people would still be aginst it because of the height.

The HCA isn't known for being overly NIMBY, so that's a cheap shot. They're not the Glebe.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by m0nkyman

The HCA isn't known for being overly NIMBY, so that's a cheap shot. They're not the Glebe.

Its not a cheap shot just look around the city no matter where it is it there will be some upset look in orleans people are all up in arms about a 8 floor building thats just one exzample.

[HintonburgCA]

Originally Posted by reidjr

You could have the worlds best architect come have great plans for a 30 floor building but people would still be aginst it because of the height.

I'm not so sure. The Mixed Use Centre that we all bought into goes from Scott to Wellington. We were careful to ask for - and get - a transition in the Official Plan. If the project were sensitive to that transition requirement by being toward the Scott St. side of the Mixed Use Centre, with a gradual building of height from the south to north, and closer to the centre of the zone from Parkdale/Holland, it might fly. The transition could reasonably start with 8 storey buildings along Parkdale with appropriate setbacks. The seven-storey KRP building, for example, at Spencer doesn't intrude on the Parkdale sidewalk. The developer was good working with us on the garage entrances and some design features to minimize the big wall along Parkdale. I don't think it's had an overly negative impact on the neighbouring two-storey houses (personal opinion). We didn't oppose that development. Mixed Use Centres are going to be dense, after all.

You can certainly see how things could swoop up towards Scott/Holland without a huge impact on Hintonburg visually or in terms of overwhelming the nearby residential areas if it's sensitively treated. Personally, and not on behalf of my association, I could see something like this where the Beer Store is or the lot immediately to the east, with a transition back down to eight storeys along Parkdale.

Traffic studies will be interesting. Parkdale and Wellington are both already choked during peak periods, including the weekend when the Market is in operation. The only viable access in and out will be on Spencer via Holland, which rules out easy Queensway access. That's probably not a big deal, though, if people are using Holland/Scott to get downtown or to Hull during weekday peak periods. From a traffic perspective, though, the closer to Holland/Scott the better with respect to traffic patterns.

[S-Man]

That's a much more detailed, rationale response than we're used to from other community associations in Ottawa (*cough* Glebe, Westboro.....).

I'd like to see this (or something like it - ideally with UNBELIEVABLY GOOD architecture) built somewhere in this city in the Tunney's-Bayview-City Centre area. You'd think Tego would go mid-rise in this spot before eyeing a more viable parcel in a couple of years (assuming the aforementioned lands ever get put for sale).

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by HintonburgCA

I'm not so sure. The Mixed Use Centre that we all bought into goes from Scott to Wellington. We were careful to ask for - and get - a transition in the Official Plan. If the project were sensitive to that transition requirement by being toward the Scott St. side of the Mixed Use Centre, with a gradual building of height from the south to north, and closer to the centre of the zone from Parkdale/Holland, it might fly. The transition could reasonably start with 8 storey buildings along Parkdale with appropriate setbacks. The seven-storey KRP building, for example, at Spencer doesn't intrude on the Parkdale sidewalk. The developer was good working with us on the garage entrances and some design features to minimize the big wall along Parkdale. I don't think it's had an overly negative impact on the neighbouring two-storey houses (personal opinion). We didn't oppose that development. Mixed Use Centres are going to be dense, after all.

You can certainly see how things could swoop up towards Scott/Holland without a huge impact on Hintonburg visually or in terms of overwhelming the nearby residential areas if it's sensitively treated. Personally, and not on behalf of my association, I could see something like this where the Beer Store is or the lot immediately to the east, with a transition back down to eight storeys along Parkdale.

Traffic studies will be interesting. Parkdale and Wellington are both already choked during peak periods, including the weekend when the Market is in operation. The only viable access in and out will be on Spencer via Holland, which rules out easy Queensway access. That's probably not a big deal, though, if people are using Holland/Scott to get downtown or to Hull during weekday peak periods. From a traffic perspective, though, the closer to Holland/Scott the better with respect to traffic patterns.

I have to give you credit for such a detailed reply with my last post it was not mean to to be a cheap shot its just over and over people are aginst projects etc its great to see your group is very open minded.

[HintonburgCA]

Originally Posted by S-Man

That's a much more detailed, rationale response than we're used to from other community associations in Ottawa (*cough* Glebe, Westboro.....).

I'd like to see this (or something like it - ideally with UNBELIEVABLY GOOD architecture) built somewhere in this city in the Tunney's-Bayview-City Centre area. You'd think Tego would go mid-rise in this spot before eyeing a more viable parcel in a couple of years (assuming the aforementioned lands ever get put for sale).

I think that's the problem. There's this juicy parcel of land next to the Parkdale Park, and it's brutally contaminated. So, the owners seem to keep trying to cash in. No credible developer will touch it - they know they simply can't develop the land with enough height to make it economical. Our friends at Ashcroft and Minto have more sense than to propose a 36-storey tower next to two-storey singles and doubles. There's OMB battles where you can roll over community opposition, and then there's 36 storeys in the face of a series of consensus plan about how this land should be developed. So, first we get the Artisan guys - and you remember how warm and fuzzy they were - and now this. You'd be amazed at how much work is done on a volunteer basis in Hintonburg day in and day out on development issues. When there's credible proposals, like the Currents building, the KRP building, the new Domicile condos at Holland, even the new HUB proposal that will bring more affordable housing to the community and will most certainly require additional height, we roll up our sleeves, work through concerns, and get the job done. But that's all volunteer hours. I really, really wish the city were more proactive about nipping crap like this proposal in the bud instead of making us jump through the hoops. The owners here need to be told in no uncertain terms that their next partners had better not be another one of these fiascos. The land value there is, one of these days, going to make development within the envelope viable. In the meantime, they're going to have to be patient.

[Lloyd]

Found an image with the article [by Joanne Chianello, Ottawa Citizen June 4, 2011] from above, at http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx . It certainly stands out.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Lloyd

Found an image with the article [by Joanne Chianello, Ottawa Citizen June 4, 2011] from above, at http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx . It certainly stands out.

On the Citizen site there's no image.

EDIT: I found it on that press site you linked. It actually looks kinda nice since it actually has a definable top instead of just "ending".

[McC]

Originally Posted by Lloyd

Found an image with the article [by Joanne Chianello, Ottawa Citizen June 4, 2011] from above, at http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx . It certainly stands out.

that link didn't work for me, but try: http://digital.montrealgazette.com/e...69Q==&feed=rss

a good looking building in an inappropriate location still makes for a bad building in my books

[Davis137]

Actually has a lot of design cues from the Minto Metropole, judging by that rendering alone...

I think it would be even better situated on the block between Bullman street and Scott though. Even a building that's 20 floors in that location would look great...

[citizen j]

As usual, the discussion will end up focusing on the wrong thing (i.e., size). Sure, Ottawa needs to get over its gag reflex and learn how to swallow 36 storeys. But the real problem is the way the building interacts (or, in this case, doesn't interact) with the street. There is WAY too much blank wall facing the sidewalk near the main entrance in that rendering. So, whether it's 8 storeys or 36, this design needs a do-over.

[YOWflier]

[eternallyme]

I see no reason why it can't be approved. It is very close to high-quality transit service and would not have any significant interference on the Peace Tower views...

I'd love to see some 50+ storey buildings in Ottawa (corporate headquarters relocating) but a new site (Hurdman perhaps?) would be necessary for them.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by citizen j

As usual, the discussion will end up focusing on the wrong thing (i.e., size). Sure, Ottawa needs to get over its gag reflex and learn how to swallow 36 storeys. But the real problem is the way the building interacts (or, in this case, doesn't interact) with the street. There is WAY too much blank wall facing the sidewalk near the main entrance in that rendering. So, whether it's 8 storeys or 36, this design needs a do-over.

Um, if you look carefully, the only part of the ground floor in that shot that the developer owns is left side where the trees are on the sidewalk, which I believe is were they will retain the Orange gallery? The rest of the front is on the right side is the Carleton Tavern and another building (kids clothing store?) which isn't part of the development.

The lot for this, afterall is an L shape, so the frontages on Parkdale, Hamilton and Spencer would be the unknowns from this drawing...

Perhaps we all better look before we jump here...

[ServiceGuy]

I can't see a high rise unknown like Tega being the first to take the Ottawa's Tallest title from Campeau and especially with the 12 million dollar abatement costs. I think someone will build a new tallest in Ottawa but I would expect it to come from an experienced high rise builder like Claridge, Charlesfort, Urban Capital, or perhaps a commercial tower. Mastercraft (SOHO) is also trying but they have yet to cash out on a single SOHO project and may be biting off more than they can chew in the unlikely case it should be approved.