Tivoli Theatre | ? | 22 fl | Planning

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by durandy

I'd also think the expropriation rate would be market value, not the price the ballet company got it at, which seemed like a charitable donation.

Yeah, digging into it, it gets muddier. The city definitely got soaked, but not by the ballerinas. To be fair, the CBC story doesn't offer much detail on Hamilton's contributions and considerations. It also fudges the purchase date: Canadian Ballet Youth Ensemble acquired it for $1 in August 2006(not 2004), and FWIW the ballet company also issued a $550K charitable tax receipt to the Snidermans.

The building was reportedly tax-exempt from 2001-2006, and the City had apparently been in negotiations with the Snidermans to repair and preserve the Tiv prior to the partial cave-in. From CATCH, August 2004: "We were in discussions and the Sniderman family were asking for well in excess of $2 million in a tax receipt for a building that was assessed at $500,000." The city had apparently been angling for the same kind of charitable deal that the CYBE got.

In 2005, the City settled a dispute with the family over the outstanding $500K+ bill for emergency shoring and demolition costs related to the June 29, 2004 south wall collapse that led to the oldest part of the building -- the 1874 carriage factory and the 1908 lobby, not the 1924 theatre -- being later razed by the City in the fall of 2004. The theatre apparently has provincial heritage status.

[realcity]

Great news. Awesome concept to have condos and commercial and keep the theatre.

Might see 3 cranes on James North this year, this, Lister and Acclamation.

[CaptainKirk]

Originally Posted by realcity

Great news. Awesome concept to have condos and commercial and keep the theatre.

Might see 3 cranes on James North this year, this, Lister and Acclamation.

What about a crane at James and Vine?

BTW, how can condos go behind the Tivoli when the the theatre pretty much goes right up to Hughson st?

Also, wonder what the shopping centre out front will look like. It's a pretty neat space now.

Can't wait to see the plans.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^Not sure about the condos going in behind unless they're cantilevered above the Tiv.

I'd really like to see the adjoining 'Centre Point' strip mall bite the dust. To do this properly, that corner property needs to get redeveloped, too.

Great news. I've been waiting on this for what seems like an eternity.

[matt602]

My perfect vision of this project would also be if the strip mall was leveled and an 8-10 story condo with ground floor retail went up in it's place. That strip mall never should have been there in the first place. Pretty sure it's owned by the same guy doing the James and Vine thing, unfortunately.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by matt602

My perfect vision of this project would also be if the strip mall was leveled and an 8-10 story condo with ground floor retail went up in it's place. That strip mall never should have been there in the first place. Pretty sure it's owned by the same guy doing the James and Vine thing, unfortunately.

One and the same. Getting rid of that plaza, whether for parkland or higher-density mixed use development, will be the most significant measure of James North's ability to move the needle.

Density will probably always be a point of friction with locals. Beaume's James/Vine development awoke worries about it being "too big" despite being within the city's established height allowances.

Under the Secondary Plan's Schedule L-3, height on the James-Hughson-Wilson-Cannon block tops out at 6 storeys, while the block directly to the east (and the five that follow) is for 4-storey development. (The city has set a 12-storey ceiling along York from Bay to MacNab.)

There are obviously allowances that can be made: Vrancor's Homewood Suites development, for example, is on a site earmarked for 12-storey max. But the first step would just be putting CentrePoint into play.

[lucasmascotto]

I can't believe the city opted for urban infill for the James Vine development project. These other ideas were so much better. I don't see the point in creating more commercial space if there's still parts of the Stelco Tower and Jackson Square left empty.

http://www.hamilton.ca/CityDepartmen...VineStreet.htm

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by lucasmascotto

I can't believe the city opted for urban infill for the James Vine development project. These other ideas were so much better. I don't see the point in creating more commercial space if there's still parts of the Stelco Tower and Jackson Square left empty.

http://www.hamilton.ca/CityDepartmen...VineStreet.htm

The Urban Infill is the nicest looking one of the bunch to me, and also doesn't involve tearing down the existing buildings, thus avoiding the risk of ending up with another parking block.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by lucasmascotto

I can't believe the city opted for urban infill for the James Vine development project. These other ideas were so much better. I don't see the point in creating more commercial space if there's still parts of the Stelco Tower and Jackson Square left empty.

http://www.hamilton.ca/CityDepartmen...VineStreet.htm

We could do worse than Option 2, and quite often do.

The B&T consortium seems to have a lot of momentum (e.g. Queen & Peter, James & Vine), but its girders are currently rising two blocks west of where Option 1 is located. Maybe a good thing -- a medley of development would be a welcome change of pace.

As for Option 3, I wouldn't hold out much hope of another movie theatre downtown until residential density doubles or triples. The Tivoli was once a movie theatre, of course, as was southern neighbour the Downtown Theatre (originally the Grand Opera House), both operated as Famous Players houses I believe.

Chain cinemas were yanked out of the lower city a long time ago, as part of a broader trend -- the Centre Mall octoplex closed the same year the Lime Ridge multiplex was retired, shortly after SilverCity Ancaster came online and Upper James Cinemas was shuttered four years ago in celebration of the arrival of SilverCity Hamilton Mountain, which opened the same day.

Added grain of salt? EcDev's "60,000 sq ft multiplex theatre" would considerably dwarf the 41,000 sq ft SilverCity Hamilton Mountain.

RIP:

Avon (195 Ottawa N) closed 1987
Broadway (251 King William) closed 1997
Centre Mall 8 (1145 Barton) closed 2001
Century (12 Mary ) closed 1988
Hyland (190 King E) closed 1985
Main West 2 (1605 Main) closed 1985
Odeon (156 King E) closed 1991
Playhouse (177 Sherman) closed 1985
Reo (170 Parkdale) closed 1985
Tivoli (110 James N) closed 1989
Towne (760 Barton) closed 1980
York (164 York) closed 1985

As for the Tivoli itself, it would be nice for the Spec to backburner this story until it is news. Let us know when it has flamed out or come to fruition but enough of the "any day now, for real this time, this is the year" updates-that-merely-rehash-the-history.

[CaptainKirk]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

RIP:

Avon (195 Ottawa N) closed 1987
Broadway (251 King William) closed 1997
Centre Mall 8 (1145 Barton) closed 2001
Century (12 Mary ) closed 1988
Hyland (190 King E) closed 1985
Main West 2 (1605 Main) closed 1985
Odeon (156 King E) closed 1991
Playhouse (177 Sherman) closed 1985
Reo (170 Parkdale) closed 1985
Tivoli (110 James N) closed 1989
Towne (760 Barton) closed 1980
York (164 York) closed 1985

\

Found this posted by TivFan elsewhere on the net

TivFan on April 29, 2012 at 10:26 am
This theater was not called York Cinema. Just York. The York Theatre. “The 448-seat theater closed in 1985.” This is incorrect. The theater opened in l940, and had 400 seats. The site of the York (the north side, near Hess) is now the playing/football field of Sir John A. MacDonald School. The school opened in 1970. The Google street view is wrong. It shows York Road in Dundas. York Street was renamed York Boulevard.

TivFan on April 29, 2012 at 10:44 am
The theater opened in l940, as the York. So the “China Cinema in 1945” is incorrect. If a Chinatown area existed on York Street, I do not recall this. I think the York closed in the late 1950’s or early 1960’s (a victim of television, I’m assuming). I will have to do some research on this theater. There is not a lot written about it. I have only seen one picture of this place. I don’t know how long the building existed after it closed as a theater.

TivFan on April 29, 2012 at 11:16 am
The 2004 comment by mrcinema is incorrect. The York on York Street was closed and/or demolished by the late l960’s. The Mountain Theatre on Concession Street was renamed the York in the early 1980’s. It was named the York when it closed c.1985. It was vacant, for a time, then used as retail (used sports equipment) before a started conversion to medical offices was abandoned. Later it was called The Movie Palace…

Found this on wiki when looking up the Palace theatre

The Pantages Theatre opened up in 1921 on King Street, (between Catharine Street and Mary Street), with a seating capacity of 3,500 made it the largest theatre in Canada at the time. In 1930 it was renamed The Palace Theatre. It closed down in 1972. Hamilton one time was home to many Grand Theatres, all of which are no longer in existence. These include, Grand Opera House (James Street North), Savoy Theatre (Merrick Street), Temple Theatre (behind the Terminal Building on King Street), Lyric Theatre (Mary Street) and The Loews Theatre renamed later to The Capitol (King Street East).[4]

And when Googling the Capitol, I found this about the Tivoli and Capitol

The front building, now a gaping hole, was once a carriage factory. In 1875 the factory was built to satisfy transportation needs for a booming industrial city called Hamilton. This would last for only 6 years, closing up in 1881 as the need increased... with other local carriage factories.

The building remained empty until 1907 when a new community started to rise… the theatre community. The factory was converted to a small store theatre, with about 200 seats, that would show live vaudeville acts. Over 16 years as a live theatre, the building changed names three times, from the Wonderland, to the Colonial, and finally The Princess.

The third time wasn’t the charm. Many exclaimed “Vaudeville’s dead!” and the moving picture was the future. This began the time of the single movie-houses.

They opened all over the city, making Hamilton a forward thinking, or ambitious place. This included the impressive Capital Theatre{linktoDTGW} on King Street (at the corner of John Street).

The Capital was very popular with many silent films starring Charlie Chaplin, news reels and even cartoons. All 2,000 seats would be regularly filled, showing a need for more movie centres in the city.

In 1924, the Tivoli Theatre was built and opened by Andrew Ross. An interesting coincidence is that Mr. Ross owned a carriage factory on King Street (now the Denningers building). A ghost sign was recently found when an abandoned building was removed. It showed “Andrew Ross Carriage and Wagon Builder”, with Coca-Cola (for only $0.05 a bottle) below it.

The old carriage factory was converted into an impressive lobby and a new auditorium was built behind it. It was built to impress and compete with the Capital, the city’s crown theatre jewel at the time.

http://www.hauntedhamilton.com/62_ar...theatre_1.html

Capitol , 103 King St. E., 1917- 1971

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by lucasmascotto

I can't believe the city opted for urban infill for the James Vine development project. These other ideas were so much better. I don't see the point in creating more commercial space if there's still parts of the Stelco Tower and Jackson Square left empty.

http://www.hamilton.ca/CityDepartmen...VineStreet.htm

These are not true options and they're at least five years old: it's just the Planning Dept doing its thing. There are all kinds of these proposals on the City website and they're meaningless, though nice to look at (sometimes).

You'll notice the trend that their ideas often involve razing some or most of the properties in the study - some things never change in this city!

Here's the preamble:

Site Development Potential
The Urban Design group explored the development potential and to provide design direction for the block bounded by James Street North to the east, Park Street to the west, Vine Street to the south, and Cannon Street to the north.

[bigguy1231]

I don't see why there would be any height restrictions in the area. It's not like there is an over development problem. Let the market dictate the height of the buildings. What the city should be concentrating on is street level uses.

[coalminecanary]

Am I the only one who sees this as a bit of a joke?

There's no information here. No developer. No partner. No funding. Once again, the spectator reports it as if it's news. What is the hurry to make an announcement if you can't announce anything concrete? Just wait til Feb if that's when it's going to be finalized.

I'm sick of these big stories being reported as news. They are just fables at the moment.

Same with Blanchard's crap. He's going to tear a bunch of buildings down, and people wont' fight it because he sent out some fuzzy pictures of coloured boxes? A member of this very forum created better renderings in his unpaid spare time than the Blanchard "proposal". The spectator needs to work a little bit harder before printing this garbage.

[ihateittoo]

Yes my guess is the other two options would need a lot of private investment which would probably takes years to materialize if ever.

Urban infill makes the most sense at this point.

[Berklon]

I love seeing old pictures of Hamilton's movie theatres with the marquee displaying the film being shown at the time. Powell and Pressburger's "I Know Where I'm Going" (1945) in the picture on the left, and Stanley Kramer's "On the Beach" (1959) on the right.

But, yeah... I miss the single theatres with their large marquees. They had a more intimate feel to them. I can't stand these massive multiplexes with huge lobbies and all sorts of noisy games and crap. It now feels more like I'm in an amusement park instead of a movie theatre.

[CaptainKirk]

[thmx]

Originally Posted by CaptainKirk

I need a time machine. I wish I could have seen all of these theatres when they were at their best. I was born in '93 so the only theatres I've ever gone to frequently are SilverCity Burlington & Ancaster, and the newer Hamilton Mountain SilverCity...they can't compare to these old ones.

[thistleclub]

Thanks, CaptainKirk. Amended. (Imported most of those dates from the linked PDF but York did seem iffy.)

Another cinema lore link.

[bigguy1231]

The Capital and Palace theatres were replaced by the Odeons on King at Mary.

It's nice to see the old pictures. I remember going to many of those theatres as a kid. The Palace was huge. It had 1300 more seats than Hamilton Place. The lobby was very ornate as was the actual theatre.

The Delta theatre at the Delta was another huge theatre that I remember going to and I do remember Starvin Marvins at that location.

There was a theatre on King just East of Sanford which I think was called the Strand which was fairly large and ornate.

Then there was the Cinema, the Avon and the Towne.

There was also a theatre on James N, South of Wilson which still exists and is no longer used. I don't know the name but it was used as a dinner theatre during the 70's and 80's.

[lucasmascotto]

I know this totally off topic, but I didn't know what thread to post this under. The old "Federal Building" on James Street North is one of my favourite pieces of architecture in Hamilton. It has a little bit of a Parisian feel to it and I always imagine it being some sort of high-end luxurious hotel or condo-suite tower with dress or spa boutiques at the ground floor.