Eliminate our one-way streets

[Jon Dalton]

It wasn't about the leafs

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote:

The only way to grow this group is to create real destinations downtown

Like what? There are currently several "unique" destinations downtown, including the AGH, Hamilton Place (HPO), Copps and related events, Hess Village, unique dining, the Farmers Market...I'm not sure how much better you are going to do than that as far as adding "destinations". Those aren't things that are ever going to be had in the suburbs--'pander' to downtown residents all you want--if you want real success downtown it's going to be because there are people both living AND visiting downtown. I think the argument can be made that the population of the region is growing rapidly, and much of that growth (like it or not) is suburban--if you want growth downtown, you ought to be concerned about attracting those folks to the core--even if it's only to visit.

I would have no interest at all in living downtown--should I just keep my discretionary income out here in the suburbs or would you like me to spend some downtown?

Regardless of any of this--the only significant impact two-way conversion would have would be on through traffic--so-called "destination" traffic would come no matter how many ways the traffic flows.

Desynching the lights without converting to two-way will have two significant impacts--more road rage and more pollution--without any of the positive benefits of two-way flow.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Quoteesynching the lights without converting to two-way will have two significant impacts--more road rage and more pollution--without any of the positive benefits of two-way flow.

I actually agree with you on this point. I think providing a lane of street parking would have a more positive effect on the economic conditions of the street. It would reduce lane capacity thus slowing traffic and would buffer the sidewalks from traffic flow.

My preferred option for downtown Hamilton would be a full two way conversion with synchronized lights that respond to appropriate traffic volumes. Rush hour the system would have the streets move the traffic in and out of town. Evening and daytime hours would have the streets flow in cruise mode to accommodate street parking and pedestrians. The street that does this reasonably well in Toronto is Eglinton between Bathurst and Allen Rd. I think a similar approach would do wonders for King and Main. Especially if converted to two way.

The advantage of the two way system is the flexibility that they have in adjusting to traffic flow. As well, u-turns are possible which makes changing direction easier. Two ways are far easier to navigate especially if the destination is missed. One ways completely lack flexibility in this regard. No one way system can ever match the flexibility of a two way system.

One way streets tend to be anti-democratic in that they favor one mode and direction of travel. The unidirectional characteristics of one ways tend to favor anticompetitive behavior. Whereas the only the strongest niche business survive. Two ways tend to spawn a diverse free market of retail activity.

[raisethehammer]

unsynchronized lights, please. they're brutal.
straight 2-way conversion with Main street LRT, bike lanes, parking, and tons of street trees would do the trick.
Fastcars is right...destination traffic is coming regardless. hopefully we can get rid of some of the cut-through traffic. I had to go to a friends place in the Upper Ottawa/ Mohawk area the other day. in previous years I would have gone down Main St to one of the accesses.
This time I took the 403-Linc. frig. quick, and easy as heck. I was thinking to myself...if we make Main St a normal street with LRT people will stop using it as cut-through in a heartbeat. I know people who live on central mountain and they come downtown to King and over to the 403 to go to the GTA. They'd stop that instantly, especially now with Red Hill open.

[Jon Dalton]

Oh crud. That was way off topic, so I'm going to find somewhere else to post it.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Like what? There are currently several "unique" destinations downtown, including the AGH, Hamilton Place (HPO), Copps and related events, Hess Village, unique dining, the Farmers Market...I'm not sure how much better you are going to do than that as far as adding "destinations".

I'm talking about entire blocks full of restaurants, or a vibrant arts district (these are starting to develop along the slowed down sections of James N and King E funny enough). I'm not necessarily talking about city-run attractions, in fact my whole point is that a large collection of small businesses is the kind of "destination" we should shoot for - and we can't force development of those in any better way than attracting permanent residents first and foremost. Business tax breaks would also help :-)

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

f you want real success downtown it's going to be because there are people both living AND visiting downtown.

I never said it had to be either/or. I said that the population needs to be dense before we can expect a high density of quality destinations that will eventually bring visitors as part of the natural progression.

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I would have no interest at all in living downtown--should I just keep my discretionary income out here in the suburbs or would you like me to spend some downtown?

Yes, for now. I would sacrifice your spending in the short term if it meant a steady increase in permanent residential development. Then after a few years of growth you won't be able to resist coming back. You are in the minority as far as suburban residents are concerned. Most Hamilton suburbanites are afraid of downtown, and many have not been there other than to drive through in years and years. So as of right now, I believe that existing residents and future residents within the core are more important to core development than those living on the outskirts who have already decided they'll never live downtown.

I'm not saying that two way conversion is the only thing that needs to be done, and maybe it's not even the best. If the city can attract more high quality employers to the core through some incentive programs; if tax breaks for small businesses make it more attractive to operate there; things like that could also entice people to move downtown. And where the people go (people who are downtown 24 hours a day) more businesses will naturally follow.

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Desynching the lights without converting to two-way will have two significant impacts--more road rage and more pollution--without any of the positive benefits of two-way flow.

I don't mean to suggest we stop the wave at each light. Lights can still be timed in blocks, with a forced stop every 3 or 4 major blocks. New timing should encourage reduced speeds as well. Mainly, the expectation of hitting the green wave at 70km/h needs to be removed from the psyche of passers-through. The timing is set up to be too fast and too furious. And making it less convenient will reduce the number of cars travelling King and Main. There are other ways through and around the city, and we need to create an incentive to take these routes. For instance, without traffic it is 13 minutes from the QEW@Burlington Street to the Main West 403 ramp via the skyway. It is also 13 minutes from the QEW@Burlington St to King at Dundurn via Burlington/Cannon/Queen. We need to make the ring accesses easier to use for through traffic. If that means making the through routes harder to use, then it's worth that "sacrifice" in return for any amount of positive effect on the downtown for pedestrians, cyclists, elderly, children... the residents who have invested their own personal lives into our core.

We cannot have the car as supreme ruler AND downtown revitalization (in the sense of vibrancy that most of us want to see). It just won't work.

[raisethehammer]

it gets frustrating taking about this considering how simple and logical it is.
if only we had a media outlet that cared about the city and would just present the facts with great pictures from other cities that have boomed back to life while properly designing and redeveloping their downtowns.
Instead we have to read letters from some hick who never comes downtown preaching at us all about how important it is to keep the one-ways. In other words, people like that (and the Spec) think its a good idea for the entire city to be held hostage and held back so they can speed through downtown once every ten years.
Pathetic.

[raisethehammer]

haha...someone at the spec must be reading this.
they published the letter today I posted above from RTH.

[fastcarsfreedom]

What happened to their bias toward the lower city--I thought they absolutely never posted anything favorable to your viewpoint?

[SteelTown]

Lately I’ve been agreeing to all of Terry Cooke’s articles, wow huh? Terry is on a roll. Get rid of two-way, support Stinson, Flaterly’s pork barrelling for Peterborough, supports Hillary, etc.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Wellington to East Hamilton it could go two way or leave it and place traffic calming measures with wider sidewalks.

Or we could just blow it up.





Oh I'm sorry.

e: How about this instead, we just turn Main and King's stoplights from Dundurn to Wellington to blinking yellows at 8pm every night and see how fast we can go!!!

[Millstone]

King St is one lane from Wellington to Hughson right now for snow removal. If you want to see what a one-lane King St looks/functions like, go down RIGHT NOW.

[matt602]

I was down there tonight. It was not enjoyable. Took 15 minutes to get from Wellington to Bay St.

[raisethehammer]

no, that's not how it would function. It would function just fine because Main, Cannon and York would also be two-way giving people wonderful options to go where they want to go and not all be forced onto one-way streets.
King has all the potential to be like the tiny streets in Greenwich Village in NYC or Kensington Market in TO. We have all these other nearby streets for people to drive on.
I saw an accident on Main a few weeks back and it was backed up forever. King St barely had any cars going by (at Bay) along with Hunter. Yet nobody has the choice to take those streets. We've been forced by this ridiculous one-way system to all cram onto one street. Accident or snow removal happens and it takes forever.
2-way gives more options, helps traffic flow, enhances pedestrian realm, enhances transit (unless the dumb system decides to keep operating 1-way like they have so far) and helps business.
Bottom line.
that's what I want for my city. Not bragging rights about how fast we can fly through town.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by Millstone

King St is one lane from Wellington to Hughson right now for snow removal. If you want to see what a one-lane King St looks/functions like, go down RIGHT NOW.

Well, not exactly because if it was permanent then everyone would learn really quickly to take another route. Temporary lane reductions are a different story because it's a surprise when you hit it...

[SteelTown]

End in sight for many one-way restrictions
Meeting tonight will showcase city's plan to convert core streets to two ways

March 18, 2008
Dana Brown
The Hamilton Spectator

Get ready to say goodbye to Hamilton's historic maze of one-way streets.

City staff are presenting recommendations at a public meeting this evening to move forward with a whack of two-way conversions in the downtown core.

The recommendations come from a review of the Downtown Transportation Master Plan and were made after consulting the public, business owners and business improvement areas.

All the conversions with the exception of one were pegged to be done as part of the 2001 plan, says Jill Stephen, manager of strategic planning.

Stephen says part of the reason the changes haven't been made is because "we wanted to take time to evaluate the success of the James and John conversions before we did mass conversions of all the downtown streets."

The streets staff are recommending be converted are: York Boulevard, Wilson Street, Park Street North, MacNab Street North, Hughson Street North, Hess Street North, King William Street, Rebecca Street and part of Caroline Street North.

Stephen says the earliest work would get started would be 2009, but more likely it will be 2010.

The changes, and the expenses that come with them, don't sit well with everyone.

Former Hamilton-Wentworth regional chair Anne Jones says one-way streets have been working reasonably well and there's no need to change things right now.

"They should be using our tax (money) ... to do things that are absolutely essential," she says.

But others, including downtown Councillor Bob Bratina, support the conversion.

"I know some people are complaining, but it's really the way to go."

Bratina says the two-way streets will be building blocks for improvements in the core, such as attracting more stores.

Kathy Drewitt, Downtown Hamilton Business Improvement Area executive director, says the James and John conversions have been generally positive. For streets with shops, new changes will improve access to those areas, she said.

Staff are also recommending bike lanes on Ferguson Avenue North, with further study on lanes for York Boulevard and Hunter Street.

They also say the two-way conversion of King Street should be put off until transit studies are complete. Pedestrian improvements for several core streets, though not specific at this point, are also on the table.

In addition to the transportation plan, the meeting will address ways to make the Gore Park area pedestrian friendly.

Up for discussion is whether to close one or both legs of King and which blocks to close, for how long and how to use the space.

The meeting is in Webster Room C at the Hamilton Convention Centre from 5:30 to 7:30 p.m.

dbrown@the spec.com

906-526-4629

Gore Park

It's still up for discussion what parts of King Street East would be closed to make a pedestrian-friendly area around Gore Park. This city is seeking input on how large that area should be and how the space should be structured. Here's a look at the three concepts the city is seeking input on tonight.

Pedestrian mall: Vehicles would be prohibited from the street. Opportunities for delivery vehicles at designated times, transit and cycling would all be considered.

Shared space: Pedestrians and vehicles would share the space, with those on foot taking priority. There would be no boundaries, like hard curbs, to separate traffic and pedestrians, and a lesser priority would be placed on signs and lights to direct traffic. Rather, the concept relies heavily on person-to-person signals to navigate the road. City staff cite Hess Street between King and Main streets and university campuses as an example of the concept.

Pedestrian Sundays: Part of the street would be closed for a designated time and open to pedestrians only. City staff say the concept is already used in several cities, including Buffalo, Toronto and Vancouver.

Which way is the best way?

The two sides of the two-way conversion argument: Pros: * Two-way traffic offers increased access to neighbourhoods and shops * Makes the area more pedestrian-friendly by slowing traffic down * It's easier to navigate Cons: * The one-way system has been working for more than 50 years * Conversion is an unnecessary expense when council is pinched for cash * One-way traffic moves faster

[SteelTown]

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

no, that's not how it would function. It would function just fine because Main, Cannon and York would also be two-way giving people wonderful options to go where they want to go and not all be forced onto one-way streets.
King has all the potential to be like the tiny streets in Greenwich Village in NYC or Kensington Market in TO. We have all these other nearby streets for people to drive on.

Main, Cannon, and York are currently also options as one way streets.

Kensington Market?!!?!? King Street is a major through street --- Kensington Market is made up of tiny dead end side streets. They are not and can not be even remotely comparable.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

I love waking up to good news in the AM! Sweet deals.

I hope they get a lil more serious about the time-frame, tho!
"Stephen says the earliest work would get started would be 2009, but more likely it will be 2010."
hahaha 'or maybe 2012, or 2020...' hahaha

[BrianE]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

End in sight for many one-way restrictions


Get ready to say goodbye to Hamilton's historic maze of one-way streets.

Wow, I guess descisions made in the 50's and 60's are now "Historic". Everybody get ready for opposition to this idea based on "one way streets being part of our historic cultural heritage."

Former Hamilton-Wentworth regional chair Anne Jones says one-way streets have been working reasonably well and there's no need to change things right now.

I actualy laughed out loud at this quote and scared my dog in the process. Is she serious? Does she really believe that the current condition of the downtown can be described as working reasonably well?