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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 12:27 AM
theWestisDead theWestisDead is offline
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Craig - St Antoine
St. James - St. Jacques
Dorchester - Rene Levesque
Park - Robert Bourassa

I sense a trend of some sort...
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 12:34 AM
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the same as when the anglos left these streets behind.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 1:52 AM
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^ thing is, the anglos didn't leave these streets behind. The anglos are still the ones who live on these streets.

I lived downtown for 2 years in 3 different places: de Bullion bet. Sherbrooke & Prince-Arthur (actually, it's a few metres east of downtown), Durocher bet. Milton & Prince-Arthur, and Pine between Redpath and Du Musée, and let me tell you that if radio talk-show hosts (who rarely even live on the Island of Montreal) always complain that people speak English downtown, it's because it's still English-speaking people who reside downtown.

Also, to get a glimpse of the possible future, just look at the ads for projects like les tours Lépine and le Roc Fleury: they're always 3 to 4 times bigger in the Gazette than in La Presse, and most of the time they aren't even in La Presse but they still take up quarter pages in the Gazette (notably in each paper's saturday home section ('Homefront' in the Gazette & 'Mon Toit' in La Presse)) . So if we are to use these newspaper ads as rough indicators, francophones are still a minority of those who wish to live downtown.

Pourquoi? J'sais pas! C'est peut-être une question de différence culturelle. Il y avait un article dans La Presse il y un an intitulé quelquechose comme "Côté ville, côté jardin", et il disait qu'un sondage démontre que la majorité des Torontois préfèreraient avoir une vue sur la ville de leur fenêtre, tandis qu'à Montréal la majorité préfère avoir une vue sur du vert (boisé, jardin, etc.). Donc cette différence entre Torontois & Montréalais en général est peut-être une différence entre anglophones et francophones en général. Y'a peut-être aussi une raison historique, etc. Aussi, le gouv. du QC & même le fédéral construit toujours ses institutions à l'Est du Centre-Ville (Hydro-Qc, Guy-Favreau, GBQ, Place des Arts, Palais des Congrès, Radio-Canada), alors ça n'incite pas les francophone d'aller plus à l'Ouest (dans le centre-ville). Mais peu importe les raisons, reste le fait que le centre-ville est majoritairement habité par des anglophones et l'a tjrs été. Et on parle bien du centre-ville, pas du Vieux-Montréal, ni de l'arondissement Ville-Marie (dont une bonne partie, si ce n'est pas la grande majorité, du territoire est à l'Est du Centre-Ville). Conclusion: le Centre-Ville de notre ville, de la métropole Québécoise, est un quartier anglophone, et l'a tjrs été, et tant que les francos sont minoritaires à vouloir y vivre ça restera ainsi. Ce n'est pas bon ou mauvais en soi, mais ça serait bon qu'on se le rentre dans tête simplement parce que c'est la vérité, qu'on aime ça ou non, et c'est une vérité assez pertinente pour ceux qui s'intéressent aux langues à Mtl et au QC
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Last edited by Laurent; Oct 20, 2006 at 2:06 AM.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 1:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theWestisDead
Craig - St Antoine
St. James - St. Jacques
Dorchester - Rene Levesque
Park - Robert Bourassa

I sense a trend of some sort...
Saint-Jacques is actually the original name, dating back to 1672. The Sulpicians named it Saint-Jacques in honour of Jean-Jacques Olier de Verneuil (1608-1657), co-founder of the Société Notre-Dame, which was instrumental in founding Montreal.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 4:16 AM
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actually, craig street was renamed viger. that's one of the more clear-cut cases of montreal street names being "frenchified." but i don't think that the renaming of park avenue is part of this trend.

that said, i do think the complete lack of controversy over this in the francophone press has to do with the fact that park avenue is an anglophone street. the cultural communities who identify so strongly with it and many of the people who live along it speak english, so naturally it is the gazette, not la presse, that has tapped into their anger. park avenue perhaps has more cultural resonance among anglophones because it has appeared so frequently in english montreal fiction.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 4:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malek
Park Avenue was renamed to Avenue du Parc btw in 1961.
what's your point, sweetheart? a bureaucrat can't change history by shuffling around a few pieces of paper. officially, the river thames only has one name, but guess what we call it in french? la tamise. boo hoo.
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 4:22 AM
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for sure, the gazette turns any story into a morbid and boring episode of the "language war"...
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 4:23 AM
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huh? please point out where the gazette brought language into this.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 4:24 AM
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here you go, i'm quoting you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout
that said, i do think the complete lack of controversy over this in the francophone press has to do with the fact that park avenue is an anglophone street. the cultural communities who identify so strongly with it and many of the people who live along it speak english, so naturally it is the gazette, not la presse, that has tapped into their anger. park avenue perhaps has more cultural resonance among anglophones because it has appeared so frequently in english montreal fiction.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 4:33 AM
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you clearly did not understand even a fraction of what i wrote.
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 5:14 AM
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I came upon this from wikipedia, I think it gives a good overview of the whole history of the larger issue:

Street naming
Most streets in Montreal do not change name throughout their course, respecting their grid axis. Streets such as Saint Lawrence Boulevard, Papineau Ave., De Lorimier Ave. and Pie-IX Blvd. have a foot in both rivers, and some streets re-commence despite gaps or interruptions. There are a few notable exceptions which continue for historical reasons. A few north-south streets which begin in Old Montreal change name at Sainte-Antoine Street (formerly Craig Street), site of the former city wall (Saint-Pierre → Bleury, Bonsecours → Saint-Denis). Only one street changes name many times: McGill Street → Square-Victoria Street → Beaver Hall Hill → Frère-André Place → Phillips Place → Phillips Square → Aylmer St.

According to the rules of the Commission de toponymie du Québec, the French-language form of street names is the only official one, and is to be used in all languages: e.g. chemin de la Côte-des-Neiges; rue Sainte-Catherine; côte du Beaver Hall. Most English speakers, however, use English generic equivalents such as "street" or "road", as do English-language media such as the Montreal Gazette. Officially bilingual boroughs have the right to use such names in official contexts, such as on street signs. In the past, a number of streets had both English and French names, such as "avenue du Parc" or "Park Avenue", "rue de la Montagne" or "Mountain Street", "rue Saint-Jacques" or "Saint James Street". Some of these names are still in common colloquial use in English, and perpetuated by the tourism industry. Many streets incorporate an English specific name into French, such as "chemin Queen Mary", "rue University", "avenue McGill College". There are also a few cases where two names are official, such as "chemin du Bord-du-Lac/Lakeshore Road".

In English, the pre-Francization names are still commonly used, thus, although only the French is 'official', in English one often hears names such as Park Avenue, Mountain Street, Saint Lawrence Boulevard, Pine Avenue, Saint John's Boulevard etc. Canada Post accepts the French specific with English generic, as in "de la Montagne Street" or "du Parc Avenue", although many such forms are never used in speaking. Another anomaly that typifies this kind of mixed heritage and history is René Lévesque Boulevard. Once called "Dorchester Boulevard" in its entirety, this long east-west street was renamed for Quebec former nationalist Prime Minister René Lévesque, except for sections that run through the very Anglophone city of Westmount. However, the entire street is still sometimes referred to as "Dorchester."

It is useful to note that, in Montreal as in other cities, the generic is usually omitted in either language, so one would simply talk of Park (or Du Parc), Mountain (or De la Montagne), Saint Lawrence (or Saint Laurent), University, McGill College, Doctor Penfield, or Fairmount. This is mainly because a specific is almost never given to two streets. If duplication exists, they are always in different boroughs or towns and are retained for historical reasons. For example, Montreal's present 19 boroughs have 6 streets named "Victoria" (2 streets, 2 avenues, one court, and one square), and 9 more in on- or off-island suburbs. In recent years Montréal and most of its suburbs have dispensed entirely with such generic and linguistically fraught terms on their street signage.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_roads"
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 7:35 AM
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Un peu comme tout le monde dit, assez mauvaise chose parce que rue ayant patrimoine important, sans doute un des 5 ou 10 plus importants de Montréal. Ce serait même mieux de construire quelque chose de monumental JUSTE pour le nommer Robert-Bourassa (par exemble, euh, tour d'observation sur St-Joseph dans Mercier?)
Mais quand on y pense ça aurait pu être pire, par exemple la rue Ste-Catherine (qui a aucun rapport, je sais) : "On s'en va clubber sur RobouBou!"
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout
you clearly did not understand even a fraction of what i wrote.
obviously
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout
actually, craig street was renamed viger. that's one of the more clear-cut cases of montreal street names being "frenchified." but i don't think that the renaming of park avenue is part of this trend.
In fact, it was rue Saint-Antoine, not Viger that replaced Craig Street. To be more specific, Craig Street was an extension of rue Saint-Antoine and in 1976 the thoroughfare officially became rue Saint-Antoine for its entire length.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commission de toponymie
La rue Saint-Antoine marque sensiblement le parcours de la petite rivière Saint-Martin au nord du Vieux-Montréal. La partie la plus ancienne de la rue est connue depuis 1801, sous le nom actuel; elle est alors la voie majeure du faubourg Saint-Antoine, à l'ouest de la ville fortifiée, et conduit aux coteaux Saint-Antoine et Saint-Pierre. À compter de 1817, le prolongement de cette rue, au nord de l'ancien mur des fortifications, est connu sous le nom de Craig. Cette dénomination rappelle la mémoire de sir James Henry Craig (1748-1812), gouverneur général du Bas-Canada de 1807 à 1811. Après la démolition des fortifications, la rivière est canalisée sous terre et disparaît du paysage urbain; seuls les noms chemin de la Petite-Rivière et rue du Canal , qui ont déjà identifié cette rue, pourraient rappeler le souvenir du cours d'eau. En 1840, Jacques Viger (1787-1858) recommande, mais en vain, que l'on aménage ses rives, entre les rues Sanguinet et Saint-Laurent, pour en faire une promenade. Enfin, au début du XXe siècle, on regroupe pour une première fois sous une même dénomination les rues Saint-Antoine et Craig, qui sont le prolongement l'une de l'autre, et on entreprend, en 1905, de numéroter de nouveau les immeubles en ce sens. À la suite de pressions d'une partie de la population, la dénomination unique est abandonnée et, en 1906, les deux odonymes sont repris. Cependant, depuis le 22 juin 1976, le nom de Craig est à nouveau délaissé et le nom Saint-Antoine identifie désormais l'ensemble de la voie. Le changement de nom est effectif depuis le 1er septembre 1976. Année officielle de dénomination : 1801. Anciennement : Chemin de la Petite-Rivière, Rue du Canal, Rue Craig.
Source: Les rues de Montréal : répertoire historique, 1995.
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 7:25 PM
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Anyway, il ne fait pas renier que Montreal est devenu ce qu`elle est maintenant grâce à l`apport des capitaux britanniques. Juste pour ceci, je crois que certaines rues devraient à jamais rester anglophone du moins, comme le disait Laurent, tant qu`il y a une majorité qui y vive.

Last edited by ErickMontreal; Oct 20, 2006 at 7:31 PM.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 7:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalifaxMtl666
Anyway, il ne fait pas renier que Montreal est devenu ce qu`elle est miantenant grâce à l`apport des capitaux britanniques. Juste pour ceci je crois que certaines rues devraient à jamais rester anglophone du moins, comme le disait Laurent, tant qu`il y a une majorité qui y vive.
???
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout
check out this comment in response to auger's article. it was only a matter of time before some deranged bigot tried to frame this as a language issue:

Avec ce changement, les détestables anglophones vont enfin cesser de dire «Park Avenue» au lieu de «Avenue du parc». Maintenant, si l'on se débarrasse des affreux noms Queen Mary, City Councillors, McGill College, Queen, King et autres, Montréal aura peut-être enfin l'air d'une ville francophone. -- François Perreault


Mon commentaire un peu hors contexte est basé sur ceci
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 7:36 PM
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Ça devient n'importe quoi ce fil...
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 7:40 PM
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D`accord avec toi mais tant que des gens vont mettres sur la table des commentaires comme ceux de François Perreault, contexte ou pas, normal que ceci derive
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2006, 7:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalifaxMtl666
D`accord avec toi mais tant que des gens vont mettres sur la table des commentaires comme ceux de François Perreault, contexte ou pas, normal que ceci derive
Faut dire que le ROC n'a pas tellement donné l'exemple dernièrement en matière de bitchage ethnique et linguistique envers le Québec... C'est donnant-donnant.

Je n'approuve pas ça d'un côté comme de l'autre, mais pour certains la soupape est pleine sans doute.

Peu importe, tout ceci n'a rien à voir avec l'avenue du Parc...
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