Record Wave of Americans Fled Big Cities for Small Ones in 2023

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by jbermingham123

What???

Every big city ive lived in (St. Louis, Denver, Boston, Seattle) has tons of people in the city limits and inner-ring suburbs, nevermind the bona fide suburbs, who are afraid to go downtown or say its gotten more dangerous, dont go there as often anymore, etc. I would even say this is a majority opinion among people over 40 in St. Louis. i even know one 20-something coworker here in Seattle who refuses to go downtown (we arent friends lol).

Its crazy to me, particularly in relatively safe seattle. absolutely crazy. but perceptions dont care about reality.

I have *personally* encountered people afraid of downtown in the following cities:
STL
Chicago
Denver
Boston
SF
Kansas City
Seattle
Nashville
Houston
Atlanta
Cincinatti

The media, particularly the TV news, needs to be held responsible for this derangement. It should be a lot more common for cities to sue for libel. The city of Chicago ought to have sued the f*** out of fox news YEARS ago, for example.

That's interesting. I can't say that I've met too many people that are terrified of the city they live in. I've met plenty of people that are terrified of cities that they don't live in.

[jbermingham123]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's interesting. I can't say that I've met too many people that are terrified of the city they live in. I've met plenty of people that are terrified of cities that they don't live in.

Also sorry i just saw that your location is in NY

To be fair, NYC is perhaps the least deranged city in the US. I've spent a lot of time there and have family in NJ suburbs and have never encountered the paranoia phenomenon there. its so refreshing.

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's interesting. I can't say that I've met too many people that are terrified of the city they live in. I've met plenty of people that are terrified of cities that they don't live in.

The further away from where they live, the more they care . Another state? Even better, especially if it's California.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by jbermingham123

What???

Every big city ive lived in (St. Louis, Denver, Boston, Seattle) has tons of people in the city limits and inner-ring suburbs, nevermind the bona fide suburbs, who are afraid to go downtown or say its gotten more dangerous, dont go there as often anymore, etc. I would even say this is a majority opinion among people over 40 in St. Louis. i even know one 20-something coworker here in Seattle who refuses to go downtown (we arent friends lol).

Its crazy to me, particularly in relatively safe seattle. absolutely crazy. but perceptions dont care about reality.

I have *personally* encountered people afraid of downtown in the following cities:
STL
Chicago
Denver
Boston
SF
Kansas City
Seattle
Nashville
Houston
Atlanta
Cincinatti

The media, particularly the TV news, needs to be held responsible for this derangement. It should be a lot more common for cities to sue for libel. The city of Chicago ought to have sued the f*** out of fox news YEARS ago, for example.

There's some truth to the rumors; San Francisco is straight up Dawn of the Dead along Market Street and right around the Tenderloin and Civic Center areas...but not necessarily dangerous. I've walked up and down that area many times at night with no worries but it's pretty post apocalyptic. Rest of SF is decent and worth the visit and not at all how Fox portrays it. Oakland is worse anyway but gets nicer as you approach Berkeley.

My wife works in DT Houston and it's more or less the same, nasty but not necessarily dangerous. It's just that there are no tourists or sizable local residential population to offset the visible homelessness and vagrancy wandering around. Esp. after work hours and/ or when there are no games or conventions.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by TWAK

The further away from where they live, the more they care . Another state? Even better, especially if it's California.

Lol THIS.

[edale]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's interesting. I can't say that I've met too many people that are terrified of the city they live in. I've met plenty of people that are terrified of cities that they don't live in.

City residents typically wouldn't be afraid of their own cities, but there are plenty of suburbanites who are very afraid of the cities that anchor the metro areas they live in. You should know this coming from Detroit. I've had relatives advise my family to not even get gas in the Detroit city limits no matter the time of day. This attitude is certainly present among some suburban/exurban Cincinnatians, though it has gotten a lot better from when I was a kid in the 90s/early 2000s. Suburbanites, or people who live in the exurban fringe, would often boast about never going downtown, and would talk about Cincinnati's urban core as if it was a war zone or something. Often these people would live in some small town in Northern Kentucky or somewhere, and had never been to Downtown except for a sports game. Still to this day I see posts on Facebook and the like talking about how crime infested and dangerous downtown is. It's mostly rooted in racism, I imagine. Poor Black people = scary to these people who live out in their suburban bubbles. Kind of rich to see these second amendment enthusiast, wannabe tough guys whine about how scared they are of an urban area

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by edale

City residents typically wouldn't be afraid of their own cities, but there are plenty of suburbanites who are very afraid of the cities that anchor the metro areas they live in. You should know this coming from Detroit.

Suburbanites do not live in the cities that they anchor, so that would qualify as someone being afraid of a place where they do not live. My point is that people aren't usually afraid of the place where they actually live and spend their time.

[Steely Dan]

^ there are PLENTY of people living within Chicago city limits who are afraid of other parts of the city.

I strongly suspect Chicago is not unique in this regard.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ there are PLENTY of people living within Chicago city limits who are afraid of other parts of the city.

I strongly suspect Chicago is not unique in this regard.

Are people really leaving their neighborhoods in Chicago because they are afraid of neighborhoods in other parts of the city? I find this hard to believe.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Are people really leaving their neighborhoods in Chicago because they are afraid of neighborhoods in other parts of the city? I find this hard to believe.

People leave Chicago all the fucking time, and crime is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, push factors.

It's totally possible for someone to live within a city and still be afraid of that city's downtown.

I wouldn't say that's a terribly common attitude within Chicago, but replace "downtown" with "englewood"........

[craigs]

Originally Posted by jbermingham123

What???

Every big city ive lived in (St. Louis, Denver, Boston, Seattle) has tons of people in the city limits and inner-ring suburbs, nevermind the bona fide suburbs, who are afraid to go downtown or say its gotten more dangerous, dont go there as often anymore, etc. I would even say this is a majority opinion among people over 40 in St. Louis. i even know one 20-something coworker here in Seattle who refuses to go downtown (we arent friends lol).

Its crazy to me, particularly in relatively safe seattle. absolutely crazy. but perceptions dont care about reality.

I have *personally* encountered people afraid of downtown in the following cities:
STL
Chicago
Denver
Boston
SF
Kansas City
Seattle
Nashville
Houston
Atlanta
Cincinatti

The media, particularly the TV news, needs to be held responsible for this derangement. It should be a lot more common for cities to sue for libel. The city of Chicago ought to have sued the f*** out of fox news YEARS ago, for example.

None of my immediate family members were ever afraid of downtown San Francisco (although we all avoid the Tenderloin). My family near Boston will go into the central city two or three times a year, and they treat it like a dangerous safari. But my extended family near St. Louis hates everything about STL, and they never went/go there. Whereas my grandparents and aunts would take me into downtown Boston to see the sights when I was in town, my family in St. Louis took me to the Arch exactly once in my life, and that was it for downtown STL. They thought I'd be more interested in driving around a fancy suburban neighborhood built around a golf course.

Originally Posted by JManc

There's some truth to the rumors; San Francisco is straight up Dawn of the Dead along Market Street and right around the Tenderloin and Civic Center areas...but not necessarily dangerous.

I worked in downtown San Francisco for decades. Before the pandemic it was always bustling and crowded. There were homeless and crazies, but they got lost in the crowds. Then, the pandemic sent the downtown workforce packing, and now the homeless and crazies are very visible. The Tenderloin and Civic Center were always zombieland, though.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

People leave Chicago all the fucking time, and crime is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, push factors.

It's totally possible for someone to live within a city and still be afraid of that city's downtown.

I wouldn't say that's a terribly common attitude within Chicago, but replace "downtown" with "englewood"........

People make decisions to leave a city that have nothing to do with crime. Do you think people are making decisions to leave the city of Chicago because of perceptions about an area of the city where they don't live or visit? I find this very hard to believe.

Even people living in Chicago that are afraid of downtown presumably don't go there, right? If they do go there then it's likely because they work there, and they'd still have to go there even if they leave the city. Moving across an imaginary line does nothing to change whether or not they spend time in downtown Chicago.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

People make decisions to leave a city that have nothing to do with crime.

Well duh.

But "crime", real and/or perceived, is absolutely one of the biggest push factors that leads many people to Chicago's exit doors.

Go read any article written over the past two decades about the 275,000 black flighters who've left Chicago, and "crime" will be mentioned within the first several sentences.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Well duh.

But "crime", real and/or perceived, is absolutely one of the biggest push factors that leads many people to Chicago's exit doors.

Go read any article written over the past two decades about the 275,000 black flighters who've left Chicago, and "crime" will be mentioned within the first several sentences.

But those are talking about crime where they live(d). I've made two points here that might have been missed:

1. People don't usually stay too long in places where they don't feel safe. Most people that have lived in cities for a long time feel perfectly safe in them despite what Fox News says (and Fox News's audience are anti-urban suburbanites anyway).
   
2. People don't leave their cities because of perceptions about safety in other parts of the city. I've never heard anyone in NYC talk about leaving the city because of crime in the South Bronx or East New York. And the people I talk most with about crime in NYC are people that don't live here! Most of my conversations about crime and safety in NYC with my relatives that live in other states who just zero in on any negative story about NYC in the national media.

[FromSD]

Originally Posted by jbermingham123

Also sorry i just saw that your location is in NY

To be fair, NYC is perhaps the least deranged city in the US. I've spent a lot of time there and have family in NJ suburbs and have never encountered the paranoia phenomenon there. its so refreshing.

But even there Republicans made serious gains in the 2022 election partly on the basis of stories about NYC crime and mayhem touted by tabloids like the New York Post. Those stories probably made the difference in allowing the GOP to retake the House in 2023 as several New York area congressional districts switched hands (witness George Santos, a walking crime spree himself).

And the fixation on the isolated instances of murder on mass transportation in New York and elsewhere is particularly ironic. Every instance, of course, is horrific, but how much time does local media spend on all the deaths due to motor vehicle accidents? I'm pretty sure that the death by automobile total exceeds the murder total in my city, probably by a factor of two or three. But these deaths barely rate a passing mention in the newspaper or local news telecast.

[UrbanImpact]

Cities should be weird ,curious , functional, and beautiful.. albeit and safe. God forbid everything turned into CVS/Panera Pread/LakesOfCookieCutterGated development boring hell. We have choices luckily and there’s actually a lot of good choices rural or urban (minus transit in the US) for whatever you may like if you’re successful.

i for one definitely love at least one day a week to hermit and veg out at home, but, everyone I know of all ages without disabilities gets out whether they are apartment or house or cave or castle dwellers.

I for one have to do architectural plans sometimes for drive-thru restaurants or a pharmacy in a once thriving department store as much as it kills me sometimes. The good news is that’s American cities big and small are thriving no matter what shock bait articles tell you.

Edit: Cheers bishes, I may be a lil tipsy from the Lords Of Acid concert

[AaronPGH]

I love cities. I am obsessed and I always will be. With that said, as I creep towards middle age along with my friends, the idea of a closer connection to nature and a lower speed life becomes more and more of the dream.

In my queer/lgbtq circles, there are a lot of discussions happening right now about how we will age gracefully and take care of each other. And these are not just one on one conversations, but happening in panels, books, and larger community events. I organize an annual queer festival of about 2000 in the woods and there are so many requests for these discussions as well as academics writing and talking about it. Many of us do not have partners or kids to take care of us as we get older, and the idea of building micro-communities in rural areas where we can sustain and care for ourselves is very attractive. I already have countless queer friends who have bought rural land and begun building out small farms, cabins, places for them and their close friends. They're not running away from the cities because of fear, it's just a desire to slow down and shift gears in life. Settle into a more relaxed chapter as we age. I think the pandemic really expedited all of these conversations.

I realize this is a personal anecdote but it's happening in too large of a scale to ignore. It's absolutely a trend within the queer community and I'm sure it is moving the bigger needle in some manner.

Personally, I am all for it. We need to start spreading out and balancing things a bit more politically. We can't all live in the 4 largest metro areas and then wonder why our politics look the way they do.

[badrunner]

^ I love the city but becoming a desert hermit is starting to look more appealing. And it's not because of crime. I've seen worse. There's just too many damn people and too much BS to deal with.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

This amazing nugget is based on what?

Every single city dweller I know leaves their apartment.

I see thousands of them out in the streets/transit everyday.

You must live in a very strange city.

With all due respect, you don't live in an apartment. My buildings in Chicago were always INSANELY busy with deliveries and packages. Hell, there were days I couldn't make it to my elevators because there were so many Instacart and Doordash folks waiting for people to come get their stuff.

[mhays]

And...you think that means most people never leave? What a bizarre assumption. (I live in a big condo building btw.)

FromSD, great point about car accidents killing more people than crime. That's always been the case even in the US with its huge murder numbers.

That said, people are turned off by scuzzy areas, even if they're not dangerous. That's a big issue with getting office workers back to downtowns, particularly in places that put their social services right in the middle. And its a valid turnoff for living in some cities; we need to crack down on behavior even if it's nothing like the fox news alternative reality.