Milwaukee's Mayor Johnson wants 1 million residents

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mhays

This is fantasy unless you mean corner groceries. At 15k/sm, real supermarkets will be too far apart, and a lot of people will be outside easily-walkable radii. People with cars tend to refuse to walk far with cargo.

That's all the more true because a percentage of people will refuse to shop at the closest store. If it's all Kraft-type shit, some people who want quality won't go there. If it's all posh, much of the rest will be lost. Others go to their ethnic outlets even if they're miles away. Others do their monthly Costco trips, despite (as someone noted above) urban residents often not having room for pallets of stuff.

Further, even if most people are ok with walking for most grocery trips, the drivers often represent a large percentage of the big, high-value sales.

This is why in the real world you have to be Brooklyn or a reasonable facsimile for supermarkets to skip the parking.

No, I'm talking about actual grocery stores, not bodegas. I've seen it done so I know it's not impossible. They will be smaller footprints than typical supermarkets in the US, but there will also be more of them.

[mhays]

Again I'll ask for examples. Grocery stores above 20,000 sf in neighborhoods at 15k/sm with no parking.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mhays

Again I'll ask for examples. Grocery stores above 20,000 sf in neighborhoods at 15k/sm with no parking.

I too would like to know where all of these unicorns are as well.

Cuz they ain't in Chicago.


And allowing ADUs in SFH zones, and tris/quads in duplex zones, isn't gonna make them magically appear in Milwaukee either.

Brooklyn =/= America.

[craigs]

My old neighborhood grocery store (Safeway) on Market Street at Church Street in San Francisco is surrounded by population densities of 25-30k per square mile. The store is served by an adjacent subway stop with multiple light rail lines, three adjacent surface light rail stops, two streetcar stops out front, and a major crosstown bus stop feet from the front door. But there is a big parking lot, too. The biggest in that part of the city, in fact.

[homebucket]

Off the top of my head, most, if not all, large scale chain type supermarkets (Safeway, Whole Foods, Costco, H Mart) have their own parking lots except maybe this Trader Joe's. There is a parking garage near it but I think it's for the general area, not solely for TJ customers.

[SIGSEGV]

A few grocery stores downtown don't have their own lots buy I believe validate in nearby garages (Lakeshore east Mariano's, river north TJ's and jewel osco, streeterville whole foods). The target on State Street downtown is not really a grocery store (though it is where I get most of my groceries since it's s block away from me), but has no parking at all.

[homebucket]

In Chinatown and the Inner Richmond, there are a lot of smaller independent grocery stores, which is fine because there's also a lot of other stores that sell relevant things that in totality is the equivalent, if not more, than a full scale supermarket.

See this block on Clement that features a convenience store, produce market, herbal store, tea shop, bakery, hot food deli, and housewares. It's got everything you need, and more (restaurant, music/book store, hair salon, massage, bar, insurance, travel agency) than in the footprint of a typical grocery chain + parking lot. And no designated parking lot, just the street parking.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by mhays

Again I'll ask for examples. Grocery stores above 20,000 sf in neighborhoods at 15k/sm with no parking.

I'd say this doesn't exist. 15k ppsm isn't close to being dense enough to support that level of foot traffic, unless there is some office or hotel element that isn't factored into the population density, but neighborhood level density, no way. Double that density probably still isn't dense enough to support a grocery store with no parking.

It makes too much financial sense to have parking options for a large format grocery store. As already stated, NYC is the exception in this country and virtually nothing there can be replicated at scale in any other city in this Country.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by homebucket

See this block on Clement that features.......

that's an awesome neighborhood retail set-up!

but the densities of the 4 tracts around it are:

452.02 - 37,008 ppsm
451 - 34,007 ppsm
401 - 27,295 ppsm
402 - 26,993 ppsm


so a decent percent more than the 15,000 ppsm density zone being discussed for parking-less supermarkets.

and which is a MUCH more reasonable density target for milwaukee's neighborhoods, at a broad scale.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

A few grocery stores downtown don't have their own lots buy I believe validate in nearby garages (Lakeshore east Mariano's, river north TJ's and jewel osco, streeterville whole foods). The target on State Street downtown is not really a grocery store (though it is where I get most of my groceries since it's s block away from me), but has no parking at all.

and that's downtown chicago, where population density is considerably higher than 15,000 ppsm.

i can't think of any place out in neighborhood chicago in that 15,000 ppsm density range where one might find a super market without parking.

and chicago is roughly twice as densely populated as milwaukee.

as i said before, the notion that upzoning SFH districts to ADUs, and duplex districts to tris and quads, will transform milwaukee, at any kind of meaningful scale, into a parking-free brooklyn-esque wonderland is absurd.

"neighborhood chicago" is an infinitely more realistic target for the zoning changes being proposed by milwaukee's mayor.

and even then, it will take a shitload of time, if ever.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mhays

Again I'll ask for examples. Grocery stores above 20,000 sf in neighborhoods at 15k/sm with no parking.

Here's a C Town in an area of roughly 20k ppsm with no parking: https://maps.app.goo.gl/N9V2o9BwkFpvXE5AA

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Here's a C Town in an area of roughly 20k ppsm with no parking: https://maps.app.goo.gl/N9V2o9BwkFpvXE5AA

I mean, yeah, but that's SE Queens. I don't think the day-to-day norms are all that similar, even across roughly similar densities. NYC area is an outlier.

Lots of high streets in NJ, even, have supermarkets with no parking. But I'm not sure this translates nationally.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Here's a C Town in an area of roughly 20k ppsm with no parking: https://maps.app.goo.gl/N9V2o9BwkFpvXE5AA

Nope. That's 12,744 sf, not 20,000 sf. Per the NYC parcel map, it also includes a small surface lot that appears to be used for store employees, trash, etc. The tracts in the area seem to average in the low-20s, but well above 20.

Here's the service lot: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7027...!1e3?entry=ttu

So we've found one, as long as the square footage can be more than 1/3 smaller, the density can be 1/3 more, and there can be a surface lot for the employees.

[ChiSoxRox]

My neighborhood supermarket is this 50k square foot Star Market on Comm Ave in Allston -- but there's a full lot behind it. That lot is so well hidden from the Comm Ave streetscape that I've been here eight months and never realized it. But a lot nonetheless.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I mean, yeah, but that's SE Queens. I don't think the day-to-day norms are all that similar, even across roughly similar densities. NYC area is an outlier.

Lots of high streets in NJ, even, have supermarkets with no parking. But I'm not sure this translates nationally.

My point is that full-service supermarkets can start functioning without parking lots around the low end of the medium density range. A lot of supermarket parking lots in areas above 20k ppsm can probably be done away with, and definitely above 30k ppsm. Of course you're not going to support a full sized Walmart or Target with no parking at 20k ppsm, but a supermarket can work.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

My point is that full-service supermarkets can start functioning without parking lots around the low end of the medium density range.

Lots of things can be possible.

But in practice, outside of perhaps some examples in NYC, you almost never see 20,000+ SF supermarkets in neighborhoods <20,000 ppsm without parking.

Chicago is one of the largest and most densely populated cities in the nation outside of NYC and I know of no such examples here.



Unicorns might be real.

But in practice they are not.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Lots of things can be possible.

But in practice, outside of perhaps some examples in NYC, you almost never see 20,000+ SF supermarkets in neighborhoods <20,000 ppsm without parking.

Chicago is one of the largest and most densely populated cities in the nation outside of NYC and I know of no such examples here.



Unicorns might be real.

But in practice they are not.

There are no examples of large supermarkets in San Francisco without parking either, despite high residential densities, robust public transit, and lots of pedestrians and bicyclists. I didn't own a car in San Francisco, and shopped "as needed" at the Safeway just about every day. It was a quick two-block walk, and my commute (whether by bike or train) took me past the store twice a day anyway. But still--there's a parking lot there.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

My point is that full-service supermarkets can start functioning without parking lots around the low end of the medium density range. A lot of supermarket parking lots in areas above 20k ppsm can probably be done away with, and definitely above 30k ppsm. Of course you're not going to support a full sized Walmart or Target with no parking at 20k ppsm, but a supermarket can work.

Yet here we are with no examples in the US outside of Brooklyn and Manhattan even at pretty high densities. Things don't work just because people on SSP think they oughta.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by mhays

Yet here we are with no examples in the US outside of Brooklyn and Manhattan even at pretty high densities. Things don't work just because people on SSP think they oughta.

Supermarkets without parking are the norm in Manhattan, the Bronx, Brooklyn, most of Queens, and the waterfront areas of NJ.

The 20k cutoff isn't really informative, bc NYC typically has very small supermarkets for national standards. Even in Manhattan, the vast majority of chain supermarkets are well under 20k sq. ft. The retail footprints on the high streets won't accommodate larger supermarkets except in newer construction.

Looking at Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, which is an outer Brooklyn neighborhood, not hyper-dense, and with fairly high auto ownership for NYC standards, I see no supermarkets that hit 20k. Most aren't remotely close. Also no parking in any of these examples.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6164...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6281...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6320...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6221...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6240...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6291...8192?entry=ttu

But I agree this doesn't translate nationally, even at equivalent densities. NYC is different, and this is a legacy difference. New Yorkers, on average, shop at smaller markets, getting less stuff per visit, and likely more apt to use greengrocers, butchers and other specialty stores.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mhays

Yet here we are with no examples in the US outside of Brooklyn and Manhattan even at pretty high densities. Things don't work just because people on SSP think they oughta.

I think the better question is why so many supermarkets have parking lots in places where they don't necessarily need to have them? New York is big enough to have supermarkets that cater almost exclusively to NYC, but the rest of the country is dominated by chains that try to use a standard blueprint as much as possible, whether catering to city or suburb. I suspect that is at least part of the reason we are conditioned to think supermarkets can't survive without dedicated parking, even in places like downtown Chicago.