Why London is beating American cities

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Crawford

In Germany, the concept of one or two people occupying 4,000 sq. ft. of space would be totally foreign.

Yeah, same in Japan. The biggest of the $1 million+ houses/condos in metro Tokyo almost never top 250 sq meters / ~2600 sq feet. Even in ulta-exclusive suburban areas with large lots like Den-en-chofu or Aoba-ku in Yokohama.

The vast majority of middle-class Japanese families live in 2-3 story single-family houses around 110 sq meters / 1200 sq feet in size.

[nito]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The same basically everywhere outside of U.S./Canada. When Covid ended, so did any work accommodations.

First time in generations that U.S. actually has more worker-friendly norms.

A few of the professional service firms that I work with mentioned a degradation in skills whilst working from home as a primary reason to encourage younger staff back into the office, so it would be a bit surprising that US firms haven’t detected similar issues. Monday’s and Friday’s are still quieter than previously, but that is gradually changing with more employers stipulating an increasing number of days back in the office.


Regarding the conversation of the housing crisis in the western world is two problems: undercrowding and overcrowding. There are too many homes in some places, and not enough in others.

There was a paper published yesterday that dug into the under-occupancy issue of English dwelling stock which identified that if you maximised all the available existing housing space (25% of homes have a spare bedroom, a further 17% have two spare bedrooms), then there wouldn’t be any issues in terms of housing the existing population.

Another report produced by the Centre for Cities last year identified that there is a deficit of 4.3 million homes that have not been built across the UK.

Greater supply plus changes to taxation would alleviate a lot of the issues facing many Anglo countries.


Coming back to London, I do think a key part of the strong recovery is the opening of the Elizabeth Line – now carrying more people than the combined ridership of NJT, MNR and LIRR – which acted as a sort of city-wide catalyst to get back out.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by muppet

Oh cooo-ey!!! Did you miss me? Did you??

Just for you xx

Good Lord. Any thread that shows places outside the US doing good things become a nightmare. Anything that doesn't show the US on the top as the most perfect society is angrily dismissed.

And of course, the only two or three forumers outside North America are constantly harassed. No wonder daily traffic is like ten people or so.

[woodrow]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Good Lord. Any thread that shows places outside the US doing good things become a nightmare. Anything that doesn't show the US on the top as the most perfect society is angrily dismissed.

And of course, the only two or three forumers outside North America are constantly harassed. No wonder daily traffic is like ten people or so.

I don't see the thread as being angrily dismissive. Muppet was gently poked, and then he had a number of forumers ask questions based on his knowledge. Any real dismissiveness was directed towards Kotkin, who is a tool. And of course the thread did get sidetracked by a discussion about how tame Gen-Z appears to be.

The Elizabeth Line is amazing and, again anecdotally, has had an impact. Co-workiers of mine have told me it has significantly improved their commute. I love it. Not my primary line but it is great.

I do chuckle when I listen to Londoners bitch about tube service and the national trains. I mean, I get it, almost every day there is a problem somewhere, but the number of people TFL and the national real services move is astounding. I am constantly telling people that they have no idea how good it is, vis a vis America. Of course, the comparison is actually European nations, especially France. I prefer the Tube to the Metro though. Also, talk to me after this summer when I will no doubt be bitching about how hot it is on Northen Line.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Crawford

We have a nation where people now think that people with average middle class buying power deserve giant new homes and multiple giant new vehicles without going into debt.

I actually think this is less the case now than it used to be, tbh.

And we most certainly do have a housing crisis. The main issue is that developers refuse to build anything but "luxury" or near luxury homes. Gone are the days where you could buy a new build 3 bedroom 2 bath home for a couple hundred thousand dollars virtually anywhere. That's not to say they don't exist in already built areas, but they are decreasing and there needs to be more.

The only entry level new construction (in terms of size) that exists in the Philadelphia metro outside of city limits is townhomes and they routinely start at over $500k. Most new construction SFH is $800k plus. You have to basically get to far South Jersey or Bear Delaware to get anything below that price point.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Good Lord. Any thread that shows places outside the US doing good things become a nightmare. Anything that doesn't show the US on the top as the most perfect society is angrily dismissed.

And of course, the only two or three forumers outside North America are constantly harassed. No wonder daily traffic is like ten people or so.

Disagreeing with you is not harassment, there is no need to exaggerate. All forums are down in traffic, skyscraper or not, and putting down the whole community will certainly not make you friends here my fellow Brazilian.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Good Lord. Any thread that shows places outside the US doing good things become a nightmare. Anything that doesn't show the US on the top as the most perfect society is angrily dismissed.

On any urbanist website, the anti-US stuff comes from the country's generally poor public transportation, intercity passenger rail, and shortage of walkable city neighborhoods. Those national characteristics are the unintended consequence of a variety of decisions made 100-200 years ago that truthfully cannot be fixed without causing unintentional consequences in other realms.

The fact is that U.S. cities are very, very weak political entities with almost no power to tax themselves for anything other than police and fire service. The cities had no power to build their own expressway networks and they have no power to tax themselves sufficiently to build their own subway systems. And if you were to acquaint yourself with some of the clowns who are elected to city councils, you wouldn't trust them with the cash to build these things, since they're typically completely outrageous people. Three of my city's nine councilman from the last term are currently in prison for taking comically small bribes on a variety of comically inconsequential votes.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

No, there isn't. Please re-read my previous post.

I don't see how your previous post dis-spells the idea that there's a housing shortage. If you have a good or service that some people are hoarding more of than they need without enough new supply being produced for everyone else, then that is the perfect recipe for a shortage. A shortage means there too little of something to meet demand, not that people shouldn't be consuming or demanding as much of it as they are. A shortage caused by a subset of people hoarding more than they need is just as much of a problem than one without hoarding.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by woodrow

Any real dismissiveness was directed towards Kotkin, who is a tool.

BULLSEYE!

the article was dismissed because it was written by Joel Kotkin, one of the most egregiously dishonest shitheads in the history of dishonest shitheads.

It had fuck-all to do with any "America vs. the world" bullshit.

I'm sure plenty of wonderful, amazing things are happening in London, but a lying fuckwit like Kotkin would be one of the last to know about them.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I don't see how your previous post dis-spells the idea that there's a housing shortage.

Metropolitan Canada has a housing shortage. Prime Silicon Valley has a housing shortage.

But no, the U.S. doesn't have a housing shortage. There are neighborhoods all over the place still rotting away.

The U.S. has a "housing shortage" of large, newer SFH in nice, convenient locations and affordable to average people. But that isn't a housing shortage.

You want cheap SFH? Come here; they're almost free:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4166...8192?entry=ttu

And it's all in a big metro of 5 million with tons of jobs and culture, a big intl. airport, endless lakes and recreation, and the boosters on SSP claim neighborhoods like these are booming, so it should be a great investment.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by chris08876

I'm very surprised that some people here don't think we have a housing crisis and an issue at hand in general with cost of living.

From a Canadian point of view, you certainly don't.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by woodrow

I don't see the thread as being angrily dismissive. Muppet was gently poked, and then he had a number of forumers ask questions based on his knowledge. Any real dismissiveness was directed towards Kotkin, who is a tool. And of course the thread did get sidetracked by a discussion about how tame Gen-Z appears to be.

The Elizabeth Line is amazing and, again anecdotally, has had an impact. Co-workiers of mine have told me it has significantly improved their commute. I love it. Not my primary line but it is great.

I do chuckle when I listen to Londoners bitch about tube service and the national trains. I mean, I get it, almost every day there is a problem somewhere, but the number of people TFL and the national real services move is astounding. I am constantly telling people that they have no idea how good it is, vis a vis America. Of course, the comparison is actually European nations, especially France. I prefer the Tube to the Metro though. Also, talk to me after this summer when I will no doubt be bitching about how hot it is on Northen Line.

Indeed. London Underground carries 1 billion passengers/year. Elizabeth Line is at 200 million. It alone allowed a whopping 20% increase on the system.

There are several nice things going on all over the globe and the general mood here is uninterested at best and way more often simply dismissive. Lots of local boosterism here.

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

Disagreeing with you is not harassment, there is no need to exaggerate. All forums are down in traffic, skyscraper or not, and putting down the whole community will certainly not make you friends here my fellow Brazilian.

I found the jab on Muppet completely unnecessary.

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

On any urbanist website, the anti-US stuff comes from the country's generally poor public transportation, intercity passenger rail, and shortage of walkable city neighborhoods. Those national characteristics are the unintended consequence of a variety of decisions made 100-200 years ago that truthfully cannot be fixed without causing unintentional consequences in other realms.

The fact is that U.S. cities are very, very weak political entities with almost no power to tax themselves for anything other than police and fire service. The cities had no power to build their own expressway networks and they have no power to tax themselves sufficiently to build their own subway systems. And if you were to acquaint yourself with some of the clowns who are elected to city councils, you wouldn't trust them with the cash to build these things, since they're typically completely outrageous people. Three of my city's nine councilman from the last term are currently in prison for taking comically small bribes on a variety of comically inconsequential votes.

Precisely because of that, it's even more surprising how any good initiative coming from abroad is met with a very defensive attitude.

And that's not an US thing: it's an SSP thing. On YouTube US urbanism channels, people are way more open minded regarding those topics.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by woodrow

I do chuckle when I listen to Londoners bitch about tube service and the national trains. I mean, I get it, almost every day there is a problem somewhere, but the number of people TFL and the national real services move is astounding. I am constantly telling people that they have no idea how good it is, vis a vis America. Of course, the comparison is actually European nations, especially France. I prefer the Tube to the Metro though. Also, talk to me after this summer when I will no doubt be bitching about how hot it is on Northen Line.

London and New York have systems that move similar numbers of people. Good transit does exist in the U.S. that is on par with the best transit systems in the world. Transit policy is treated as a local issue in the United States though, unlike most other countries, so results will vary.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Yuri

I found the jab on Muppet completely unnecessary.

I think that's only your perception, because I found "I so dearly hope muppet comes back and posts 8,000 fucking pics of random London shit" to be an actual compliment. Muppet's posts are always a treat, with great depth of information and documentation, often supplemented with a LOT of pictures (which is awesome). We can always count on him to set the record straight on London without rosy glasses or excessive pessimism -- which BTW he did in this thread as well, without posting too many pics (tho he posted one worth a thousand other ones ).

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by lio45

I think that's only your perception, because I found "I so dearly hope muppet comes back and posts 8,000 fucking pics of random London shit" to be an actual compliment. Muppet's posts are always a treat, with great depth of information and documentation, often supplemented with a LOT of pictures (which is awesome). We can always count on him to set the record straight on London without rosy glasses or excessive pessimism -- which BTW he did in this thread as well, without posting too many pics (tho he posted one worth a thousand other ones ).

Maybe I misinterpreted this specific original post, but muppet has been heavily criticized here several times for talking too much about London, and that coming from people that keep exchanging hundreds of posts about a couple of blocks in a random unimportant US city.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

London and New York have systems that move similar numbers of people. Good transit does exist in the U.S. that is on par with the best transit systems in the world. Transit policy is treated as a local issue in the United States though, unlike most other countries, so results will vary.

Only in one place.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Maybe I misinterpreted this specific original post, but muppet has been heavily criticized here several times for talking too much about London, and that coming from people that keep exchanging hundreds of posts about a couple of blocks in a random unimportant US city.

I am quite sure that muppet's SSP fanclub (i.e. those who LOVE his high-quality, talking-too-much-about-London posts) greatly outweighs the few members who might find it a negative (they should have their head examined, IMO).

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Yuri

but muppet has been heavily criticized here several times for talking too much about London,

I have never once criticized muppet for TALKING about London (or any other topic).

But I certainly found his bad habit of photo-spamming discussion threads with dozens upon dozens of redundant pics to make a point annoying.

In discussion threads, posting several pics to illustrate a point or topic are certainly welcome, but they shouldn't be overdone. Making a post with like 63 pics in a row should go in the city photos forum.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Only in one place.

The UK only has one London. I'm skeptical that transit in Birmingham or Manchester is much better than Chicago or Washington, D.C.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Metropolitan Canada has a housing shortage. Prime Silicon Valley has a housing shortage.

But no, the U.S. doesn't have a housing shortage. There are neighborhoods all over the place still rotting away.

The U.S. has a "housing shortage" of large, newer SFH in nice, convenient locations and affordable to average people. But that isn't a housing shortage.

You want cheap SFH? Come here; they're almost free:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4166...8192?entry=ttu

And it's all in a big metro of 5 million with tons of jobs and culture, a big intl. airport, endless lakes and recreation, and the boosters on SSP claim neighborhoods like these are booming, so it should be a great investment.

Other than the "newer SFH" part it sure sounds like a shortage. Are you saying that there's plenty of attainable housing where the demand for housing exists but people don't want it because it isn't newer SFHs? If that's true then fine, it's just a mismatch of supply vs consumer tastes. But that link to a Detroit neighbourhood... come on. Obviously if houses could be easily moved from low to high demand areas then sure, the total number of available houses in the country would be what mattered. But that's not the case. The reason for the old real estate mantra of location, location, location is that for most real estate the location is final so having the right one is as or more important than the physical structure.

To say a country has a crisis doesn't mean that everyone in every part of the country is affect. It just means that the country has a big enough problem affecting enough people in enough places that it's of national relevance.

As it stands, if the country has multiple high-demand, high growth regions where a large number of people have trouble attaining suitable housing then that's a housing crisis of national scope.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

OAre you saying that there's plenty of attainable housing where the demand for housing exists but people don't want it because it isn't newer SFHs?

Pretty much, yeah. Even in the NYC area, there's tons of affordable housing for middle class people, but many middle class people reject such housing, bc they have to have a SFH, or the housing has to be new(er) with attached garage, or the neighborhood has to be mostly white people, or there can't be any subsidized housing nearby.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

As it stands, if the country has multiple high-demand, high growth regions where a large number of people have trouble attaining suitable housing then that's a housing crisis of national scope.

Where are these places? Bay Area, fine. LA, maybe. South Florida, maybe? Incomes are low. Not Seattle, as incomes are very high and home prices nothing like Bay Area. Nowhere on the East Coast. NYC, Boston and DC all have very high incomes and still pretty broad range of housing affordability.

Also, it's myopic to go market-by-market. There's no national housing crisis. Many of the hottest markets have artificial subsidies warping the localized demand (intense SF NIMBYism) or weird politicized demand (red state tax scammers). There's no reason to alter national housing norms bc some crypto bros fled taxes and Covid rules and moved to the Miami ponzi scheme. Columbus & Tulsa & Louisville are still pretty cheap.