The Northcross Mall redevelopment thread

[Northcrossed]

Originally Posted by ATXboom

You have a problem with the way city council handled things then address the PROBLEM.

Hence the lawsuit.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

I am aware of what "footprint" means, you don't need to spell it out for us like we are children.

Really? When you talked about the multiple floors of the Dillard's being a compelling difference wrt footprint? Yes, I'm darn sure going to treat you like a child, when you can't admit you were wrong.

Regardless, even if what you say is correct about the proximity of housing (which I simply don't agree with, either - there is railroad tracks separating housing on one side, roads like Koenig and IH-35 on others, with only the northern end towards Saint John's and Continental Cars truly adjacent to the mall),

Which roughly matches the situation for Northcross - the only housing directly adjacent is an old rundown apartment complex; a few single-family homes are a hotel strip, a 4-lane collector, and a ditch away; in most directions, you have to cross a retail strip, then a major arterial roadway, then another retail strip to get to "neighborhood".

it doesn't answer for the fact that Highland Mall is better served by larger roads on every end. Middle Fiskville, Highland Mall Blvd., Airport Blvd, not to mention Koenig and IH-35 itself add up for a much larger system of roads to clear out traffic than mere Burnet and Anderson.

Although I-35 is closer to Highland, it doesn't provide any more direct access to that mall than does Mopac to Northcross. The analogues:

I-35 = Mopac (freeways; no direct access)
Burnet = Airport (major arterial roadways, roughly similar design speeds)

After that, Northcross actually has superior roadway access, in that it has entrances directly on Anderson (a major arterial), while Highland Mall drops down to collectors after Airport. No, the 2222 stub freeway doesn't have direct access either - you have to either come in the back way on Middle Fiskville or come in the front door on Airport.

Northcross = Highland Mall Blvd, Middle Fiskville (collectors)

The one thing in common in every thread on every site where RG4N and their supporters try to fight this battle is that the facts simply don't support them. In this very thread, you'll see people just trying to throw up whatever they can and seeing what will stick - which is basically a short paraphrase of their lawsuit. Good luck with that in court. Unfortunately, it's swayed people in the court of public opinion who ought to know better (while when you talk to anybody who has any demonstrated experience with transportation or zoning, you get exactly the same answers I've been giving - there's nothing wrong or disproportionate about this plan).

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Northcrossed

Hence the lawsuit.

The lawsuit is basically trying to establish "rule by mob" through throwing up a bunch of crap and seeing if anything will stick - since they couldn't convince even the most panderific City Council members to go so clearly against the letter of their zoning law to deny this project. You won't find anybody remotely acquainted with zoning or transportation who comes down on RG4N's side on this one.

[arbeiter]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Really? When you talked about the multiple floors of the Dillard's being a compelling difference wrt footprint? Yes, I'm darn sure going to treat you like a child, when you can't admit you were wrong.

No, I said both "building" and "parking lot" size in the same sentence. Essentially, the building plus the parking lot = the footprint. You are a really joyless, annoying person... you need to learn to be nicer to people, seriously. I'd almost rather hear my own fingernails scratch up and down on a chalkboard than listen to how you rudely and egotistically like to ram every tiny little point down people's throats. It's actually kind of sad.

And either way, you still haven't proven that Northcross' footprint is the same as Highland's in size. From everything I can see, it's still a fraction smaller. You can't use Google Maps as scientific basis.

[arbeiter]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Really?
Although I-35 is closer to Highland, it doesn't provide any more direct access to that mall than does Mopac to Northcross.

Actually, Middle Fiskville Road empties right onto the frontage road of IH-35, that is in and of itself more direct access to a highway than anything on Northcross. There are several stoplights before you even get to the Mopac intersection on Anderson Lane (Rockwood, Shoal Creek, etc.)

Either way, the best measure of how many homes is to do a census count within 1/2, 3/4 and 1 square mile, and I bet that by those measures Northcross has many more homes next to it.

By the way, I never disagreed with you - in terms of scale and density, it's not the end of the world or a nightmare waiting to happen if a Wal*Mart opens up. The bottom line is, Wal*Mart is an awful corporate citizen, and on that basis alone, people have the right to protest. Just like one could argue that a sweatshop or a strip club would be within the realms of acceptable density, that doesn't mean people don't have the right to protest its presence.

Using a very exacting, dispassionate line of reasoning, 'the letter of the law', is what has allowed many atrocities, minor or large, to squeak by in the past. Your same line of reasoning could have been used to support restrictive covenants, school segregation, factories opening next door to houses, ANYTHING.

[Strayone]

This thread mirrors what has been the kind of discussion between rg4n and wm, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind standing up for this project unless there is something in it for them, maybe stock or right kind of business near by (restaurants) or so far right it is off the charts. Sheesh!

[Strayone]

By the way arbeiter that was a very good post above, it hit the mark on the roadways, and I would suspect there are more residents near NC due to the fact the I35 business corridor dwarfs that of Mopac therefore there are far more people living very near NC. HM to the direct east and south have nothing but businesses for 1/4 mile or more both directions more businesses and a school and the DPS to the direct West. I do believe it will adversely affect the area and will be a nightmare for the resident's nearby.

[arbeiter]

I'm all for densifying the core, but the best way to do that is to do mixed-use, not by slapping a Wal*Mart there. Traffic in that corridor is already moderate to heavy, and then when you get the 18-wheelers and out-of-neighborhood traffic, it will be worse. M1EK is correct when he says that many of the big boxes in other states are located on arterials and not highways or frontage roads, but that doesn't negate the fact that they do create a lot of traffic, regardless of what kind of road they're on.

Even the simple fact that Wal*Marts have been proven to breed crime and are often aesthetically damaging should be reason to protest. We should demand excellence whenever an opportunity arises.

I would have less room to protest if, for example, they were putting in a Wal*Mart Neighborhood Market that closes at 11pm.

[Northcrossed]

Originally Posted by M1EK

You won't find anybody remotely acquainted with zoning or transportation who comes down on RG4N's side on this one.

Don't need to. Just one judge.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

Actually, Middle Fiskville Road empties right onto the frontage road of IH-35, that is in and of itself more direct access to a highway than anything on Northcross. There are several stoplights before you even get to the Mopac intersection on Anderson Lane (Rockwood, Shoal Creek, etc.)

I did indicate that Mopac is closer than I-35 is; but if you follow the signs from I-35, you don't end up taking Middle Fiskville from the southbound frontage road; they get you on the 2222 stub freeway and then Fiskville or Airport. The access from Mopac is longer, but actually more direct - you'd take Anderson and turn directly into the mall. (And the 'back way' is only available southbound on I-35 anyways).

Either way, the best measure of how many homes is to do a census count within 1/2, 3/4 and 1 square mile, and I bet that by those measures Northcross has many more homes next to it.

I bet you have no idea what you're talking about. Allandale is one of the least dense neighborhoods in the city.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Strayone

By the way arbeiter that was a very good post above, it hit the mark on the roadways, and I would suspect there are more residents near NC due to the fact the I35 business corridor dwarfs that of Mopac therefore there are far more people living very near NC. HM to the direct east and south have nothing but businesses for 1/4 mile or more both directions more businesses and a school and the DPS to the direct West. I do believe it will adversely affect the area and will be a nightmare for the resident's nearby.

Your suspicion is wrong. Residential density is much higher around Highland; and a similar wide retail strip exists in several directions from Northcross (to the north, for instance).

[RobDSM]

Amazing how a Wal-Mart can generate so much passion! I don't shop there, and I certainly wouldn't want one in my "backyard," but come on. How long has the zoning been in place that allows this size of retail development, whether it be a mall or a Wal-Mart? Were there any laws in place that prevented the land owners from tearing down part of the mall and redeveloping it with similar sized retail? I feel bad for the immediate neighborhood--but not that bad.

Maybe the neighborhood could setup a fund to contribute money to the owners to compensate them for not being able to build what they're legally allowed to build. The neighbors can choose the business, and then they can reimburse the owners in the amount that the owners feel is the difference in future profit. I'm exaggerating of course, but really. It sucks for the neighborhood, but that's the law. Otherwise it's mob rule.

[Strayone]

^Thanks for your concern...sorta. LOL

[arbeiter]

Originally Posted by M1EK

I bet you have no idea what you're talking about. Allandale is one of the least dense neighborhoods in the city.

Allandale doesn't even really border Northcross, at least as far as I've ever known it - Allandale to me always meant the neighborhood right around 2222 and Burnet. It is very true that up through Pegram, and all of those houses on the other side of Roger Beasley (the west side) are rather low-density. I never said Allandale was a dense neighborhood. However, Allandale is one of several neighborhoods that are near Northcross.

[Northcrossed]

Originally Posted by RobDSM

Were there any laws in place that prevented the land owners from tearing down part of the mall and redeveloping it with similar sized retail?

Once again: the Big Box Ordinance was intentionally delayed while the city held the door wide open for the developer's plan to get slipped-through. The city could have at least been neutral, but we all know that's not how it works.

Originally Posted by RobDSM

Otherwise it's mob rule.

To the barricades, then.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

Allandale doesn't even really border Northcross, at least as far as I've ever known it - Allandale to me always meant the neighborhood right around 2222 and Burnet. It is very true that up through Pegram, and all of those houses on the other side of Roger Beasley (the west side) are rather low-density. I never said Allandale was a dense neighborhood. However, Allandale is one of several neighborhoods that are near Northcross.

The other neighborhoods in the area are similarly low-density. Crestview - very low. North Shoal Creek is a little better (has a lot of apartments) but the single-family properties are still very low-density. The denser neighborhoods nearby (but not as close as Allandale) are largely silent on the project.

Allandale is actually the closest NA to the project; and the source of the majority of RG4N's energy. And it's officially everything between Burnet and Mopac; Anderson south to 45th/Hancock.

Allow me to suggest, and I hope this is taken respectfully, that you should not argue so vigorously when you do not have full possession of the relevant facts of the case.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Northcrossed

Once again: the Big Box Ordinance was intentionally delayed while the city held the door wide open for the developer's plan to get slipped-through. The city could have at least been neutral, but we all know that's not how it works.

Bull. The city council's been struggling for any justification whatsoever that would hold up in court to reject this project, because they desperately feel the need to pander here, and now you expect us to believe that they actually wanted the Wal-Mart?

Look, there's plenty of conspiracy theories floating around about RG4N's funding and ultimate plans, too, but I wouldn't post them since they are ubsubstantiated. I'd advise you, whomever you are at RG4N, to do the same.

[Northcrossed]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Bull. The city council's been struggling for any justification whatsoever that would hold up in court to reject this project, because they desperately feel the need to pander here, and now you expect us to believe that they actually wanted the Wal-Mart?

Yes. They're only desperately pandering NOW since their highly overpaid and over-rated darling Toby Futrell was caught colluding (and "sleeping", literally and euphemistically) with the embodiment of evil. They want to get on the right side of the issue, or at least appear to have tried to do the right thing, so they can get reelected or attain a higher office...and then look the other way for another couple of years while developers destroy more neighborhoods they don't live in.

Hey, where did this money for my mayoral campaign exploratory committee come from?

[JRCool]

So, I understand what I'm about to say is going to be very un-popular on here, but I really don't have a problem with this.

Now, I'm no fan of Wal-mart or anything, but I don't see anything so special about the Northcross area that deserves all this contreversy. I know thats getting close to central Austin, but honestly I don't see it as some historic neighborhood full of all local buisnesses that will all die from this. And if you're gonna build a wal-mart, I'd rather have this kind, the "urban style"

As far as all the small local buisnesses go, this isn't a small town they are in, its not like they're clientel relies on them, any buisness they get is from people who enjoy they're product and have grown loyal to them. And honeslty can't be about convience, there is another wal-mart prolly less than 2 miles from there, and an HEB very close to there, if people want low prices in the northcross area, they'll drive to those, they're not all the sudden going to want to start going to Wal-mart just cause there is one closer.

Now I heard someone mention that the auto place and the popeyes have suffered, and have closed. So wait....I'm confused, are these what we are considering the small buisnesses? I just want to point out that in that area there are LOTS of corporate buisnesses, like Popeyes and Super Salad and all that kind of stuff.

I guess I'm just confused as to why this suprises or upsets anyone, in my opinion, anything to replace the dead eye-sore that is Northcross mall is great! This little block or area that we are talking about is very retail-oriented, with, like I said, lots of other corporate, cookie-cutter buisnesses, so what is so bad about wal-mart. And honestly, if wal-mart puts a chain-auto store out of buisness, I don't see the problem in that, its called competition, and I don't see why we should have pity on OTHER succesful chain corporate stores. And as far as the local stores go, I still believe what I said in that their customers are not there because of convience, if they wanted to go to wal-mart, they would go to the one at 183 and 35.

The only REAL downside I see to this project, for the people who live right there, is the added traffic. But as far as that goes, don't live next to a dead mall in the middle of a major, booming city, and expect it to just stay that way.

[DrewDizzle]

So, I've tried reading this thread but there's a continual pissing contest. I don't have a clear picture of the pros and cons of putting a Wal-Mart there. But, if the neighborhoods don't want it, then is there possibly an argument FOR it?