DETROIT | Ren Cen | potential redevelopment

[Crawford]

I bet you they keep the Wintergarden. New(er) construction, pretty attractive space and leads nicely from the main tower to the riverfront. Doesn't really fit with the 70's vibe, but can prolly be integrated with whatever comes next.

[NYguy]

https://x.com/dclynick66/status/1810778738919100871

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by The North One

That's basically what she did, she reiterated their plans with Bedrock. But also they know demolition would be a horrible outcome. They can more easily get some public assistance for renovations if the threat of demolition is there. It benefits them. Also it's pretty standard for those in power to avoid loaded questions from the media that later bite them in the ass. She's obviously very PR trained.

Mary Barra's exact quote: "We'll look at what's the best use for that building or that property," Barra said. "We're committed to doing the right thing. It's such prime real estate. I'm sure we're going to come up with a good solution."

So she speaks of it in a way that the land is seemingly more valuable than the building.

Demolition would not be a horrible outcome if they view the land that the building sits on as having a more efficient/beneficial/economical use with a new building/redesign.

Because this is one of the largest office complexes on earth and it would probably be the most expensive controlled demolition in US history with no profit incentive to do so. Everything is interconnected so I doubt you could just easily destroy one or two towers, and what would even be the point of partial demolition? There is nothing critically wrong with the office space here and it's only had high vacancy for a very short time while the rest of downtown has low office vacancy. The most valid complaint is the lobby is a little confusing. Would be way cheaper to rework the layout than destroy any tower.

High rises are not always necessarily imploded. It's very common to deconstruct them floor by floor especially when adjacent to other structures.

[mrnyc]

the only thing more shocking than the rencen going up would be it coming down.

hopefully an at least partial residential conversion works out.

[DCReid]

While it seems to me that downtown Detroit has turned a corner although I haven't been there in at least 25 years, I don't see it 'booming' to the point that they need to consider demolishing the complex. It seems like an unwise thought given the challenging issues much of the city still faces. Renovation and possible residential conversion of one or two office towers makes more sense to me. They are also better off encouraging GM and Gilbert to redevelop any parking lots into small mixed use, sprucing up older buildings, and fixing up adjacent areas to the downtown. RenCen land can only get more valuable as it is on the river, so any idea to demolish can really wait.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by The North One

First of all, Hudsons is nowhere near as large as the Ren Cen. Second of all it sat totally abandoned for 15 years before it was demolished. Third of all there was no possible use case for the building. It was totally obsolete. Detroit has had tons of giant abandoned sites that sat vacant for decades because it was too expensive to demolish. The Statler comparison is an absolute joke.

The size of the RenCen is one of the things working against it. The other things working against it are location and overall market for office space.

Originally Posted by The North One

Get back me to when it's been 20 years and the complex is fully abandoned and deteriorating.

That's exactly what GM has very loudly stated they do not want to happen. They don't want a big abandoned building hanging on the skyline for decades to generate bad press every time the national and global media brings up Detroit. They would rather demolish the building than let it sit empty.

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by DCReid

While it seems to me that downtown Detroit has turned a corner although I haven't been there in at least 25 years, I don't see it 'booming' to the point that they need to consider demolishing the complex. It seems like an unwise thought given the challenging issues much of the city still faces. Renovation and possible residential conversion of one or two office towers makes more sense to me. They are also better off encouraging GM and Gilbert to redevelop any parking lots into small mixed use, sprucing up older buildings, and fixing up adjacent areas to the downtown. RenCen land can only get more valuable as it is on the river, so any idea to demolish can really wait.

That's a catch-22. By developing the parking space around the Ren Cen, there will be less parking for the Ren Cen making it harder to market to tenants or having less spots for any would-be residents.

In other words, growth around the Ren Cen makes it more likely to sit empty.

Don't forget, the Ren Cen was designed to be a self-contained complex and not integrate with the surrounding neighborhood. The Wintergarden was an attempt to at least partly remedy this, but it's not enough to mask the Ren Cen's other flaws in its design.

[seabee1526]

Spend the money on integrating it with the downtown. Shrink Jefferson and make it a tunnel. That space can be used for future building that will bring downtown closer to the water. Put an attraction next to it where Jefferson used to be (aquarium). Run a tram down its length. sell bonds.

Also the beautiful old county building should be a museum of natural science.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

That's a catch-22. By developing the parking space around the Ren Cen, there will be less parking for the Ren Cen making it harder to market to tenants or having less spots for any would-be residents.

In other words, growth around the Ren Cen makes it more likely to sit empty.

Don't forget, the Ren Cen was designed to be a self-contained complex and not integrate with the surrounding neighborhood. The Wintergarden was an attempt to at least partly remedy this, but it's not enough to mask the Ren Cen's other flaws in its design.

I disagree here. They need more people living near there and less parking spots. There is a sea of surface parking spaces to the east of the Ren Cen that sits empty nearly 100% of the time.

A perverse philosophy developed in Detroit in the mid-20th century that the way to save downtown was to flood it with parking spaces to compete with the ease of parking at malls in the suburbs. This was always an extremely flawed strategy because downtown could never be a convenient location to travel to by car. Even for much of the city's population, it is easier to drive to malls in the suburbs than it is to drive to downtown Detroit. The only way to counteract that convenience factor for downtown is to get more people to live close to downtown.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I disagree here. They need more people living near there and less parking spots. There is a sea of surface parking spaces to the east of the Ren Cen that sits empty nearly 100% of the time.

Office space in downtown Detroit doesn't work absent attached parking. It's dumb, but that's the market.

My dad used to work at the Buhl Building, which was the classic law firm building. That building has a giant next-door garage, built in the 1960's, to keep the building competitive. But even that wasn't enough. Most of the law firms left, in part bc the building doesn't have a directly attached garage. Now it's govt. agencies.

The adjacent Penobscot Building is the most troubled downtown Detroit office tower, almost entirely bc it lacks dedicated parking. You need attached parking.

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I disagree here. They need more people living near there and less parking spots. There is a sea of surface parking spaces to the east of the Ren Cen that sits empty nearly 100% of the time.

Post-covid this is true, but when GM had the peak number of employees at the Ren Cen, those parking lots were full during business hours. Assuming any future office tenants would have a peak number of employees (remote-work notwithstanding), this means the Ren Cen will need all those parking spaces.

Even with residential conversion, I think the parking minimum is something like 2 spaces for every unit (or it might be by square footage). Either way, parking will be needed.

A perverse philosophy developed in Detroit in the mid-20th century that the way to save downtown was to flood it with parking spaces to compete with the ease of parking at malls in the suburbs. This was always an extremely flawed strategy because downtown could never be a convenient location to travel to by car. Even for much of the city's population, it is easier to drive to malls in the suburbs than it is to drive to downtown Detroit. The only way to counteract that convenience factor for downtown is to get more people to live close to downtown.

Without comprehensive mass transit, Detroit will be limited to car-dependent development. No matter how many people actually live and work downtown, any new development of scale will require parking. For a variety of reasons, people will not necessarily live next door or within walking distance to where they work even if both areas are within downtown/midtown or adjacent neighborhoods and personal cars are still the fastest and easiest way to travel until there's more of a streetcar network that could move hundreds of people at a time.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Post-covid this is true, but when GM had the peak number of employees at the Ren Cen, those parking lots were full during business hours. Assuming any future office tenants would have a peak number of employees (remote-work notwithstanding), this means the Ren Cen will need all those parking spaces.

Even with residential conversion, I think the parking minimum is something like 2 spaces for every unit (or it might be by square footage). Either way, parking will be needed.



Without comprehensive mass transit, Detroit will be limited to car-dependent development. No matter how many people actually live and work downtown, any new development of scale will require parking. For a variety of reasons, people will not necessarily live next door or within walking distance to where they work even if both areas are within downtown/midtown or adjacent neighborhoods and personal cars are still the fastest and easiest way to travel until there's more of a streetcar network that could move hundreds of people at a time.

Unless land in downtown Detroit gets very expensive like NYC or SF, I suspect that many surface lots will likely stay. If what you say about car-dependent development is true, Detroit developers can always include parking structures with the skyscraper, much like the many of the southern cities do. So Detroit will perhaps see its future downtown development more like Houston than Chicago.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Post-covid this is true, but when GM had the peak number of employees at the Ren Cen, those parking lots were full during business hours. Assuming any future office tenants would have a peak number of employees (remote-work notwithstanding), this means the Ren Cen will need all those parking spaces.

Maybe more utilized, but even pre-COVID I don't recall the surface lots being 100% full most of the time. But even if all these parking spaces were needed, they could replace all of this surface parking with a single parking structure and put development on the rest: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5NYtYueEVWTh7PZk6

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Even with residential conversion, I think the parking minimum is something like 2 spaces for every unit (or it might be by square footage). Either way, parking will be needed.

Which is absurd. There should be no parking minimums in downtown Detroit for residential developments.

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Without comprehensive mass transit, Detroit will be limited to car-dependent development. No matter how many people actually live and work downtown, any new development of scale will require parking. For a variety of reasons, people will not necessarily live next door or within walking distance to where they work even if both areas are within downtown/midtown or adjacent neighborhoods and personal cars are still the fastest and easiest way to travel until there's more of a streetcar network that could move hundreds of people at a time.

A transit system would help, but I don't think Detroit really needs one to manage land use better. Downtown Detroit is the hottest real estate submarket in the metro area despite there being virtually no transit. Parking spaces are not the key ingredient in that. Walkability is the key.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Maybe more utilized, but even pre-COVID I don't recall the surface lots being 100% full most of the time. But even if all these parking spaces were needed, they could replace all of this surface parking with a single parking structure and put development on the rest: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5NYtYueEVWTh7PZk6

According to Google maps, there are already three giant full-block 8 level garages immediately east of the Ren Cen. They look big enough to each hold roughly 1500 cars. That should be enough, right?

[homebucket]

There's definitely a surplus of surface parking all over downtown Detroit. There's almost as much land dedicated to parking as there are actual building footprints. If parking must be required, at least put in underground, under future developments, rather than next to it in above grade structures.

[Crawford]

I don't believe those garages were around 20-30 years ago. I'm curious where RenCen office workers parked prior to that time. RenCen has its own garage and there's an underground garage just to the east, under Hart Plaza, but I'm curious what sparked the two additional garages, as RenCen has been around for nearly 50 years.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

According to Google maps, there are already two giant full-block 8 level garages immediately east of the Ren Cen. They look big enough to each hold roughly 1500 cars. That should be enough, right?

I think the worker capacity of the RC is upwards of 10k, so not enough spaces if the goal is to guarantee that every worker and visitor has a parking space to park their own car on-site at peak occupancy. But therein lies the flaw. No downtown can give everybody a parking space. Detroit really needs to get back to enabling and encouraging a substantial portion of workers to arrive by means other than a car, whether that is by transit, taxi, or on foot. That is the only way that downtown Detroit will continue to flourish.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't believe those garages were around 20-30 years ago. I'm curious where RenCen office workers parked prior to that time. RenCen has its own garage and there's an underground garage just to the east, under Hart Plaza, but I'm curious what sparked the two additional garages, as RenCen has been around for nearly 50 years.

I believe the parking structure on Atwater and Beaubien was built in the early 2000s. That is where the failed "Asiantown" was located. The structure behind it was there for decades, though. I don't think any of those structures are much less than 20 years old, but not all of them were there in the 90s.

The RenCen was the terminus for the SEMTA commuter rail line between downtown Detroit and Pontiac, so the building was actually constructed with the expectation that a substantial number of people would arrive by public transit. That is also why the building has its own People Mover station.

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the worker capacity of the RC is upwards of 10k, so not enough spaces if the goal is to guarantee that every worker and visitor has a parking space to park their own car on-site at peak occupancy. But therein lies the flaw. No downtown can give everybody a parking space. Detroit really needs to get back to enabling and encouraging a substantial portion of workers to arrive by means other than a car, whether that is by transit, taxi, or on foot. That is the only way that downtown Detroit will continue to flourish.

This I don't disagree with. I just feel pessimistic we'll get anything better than the Qline.

[NYguy]

https://www.theoaklandpress.com/2024...ssance-center/





https://gmrencen.com/leasing/