General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Did that Mother bunch brewery in that nice old building on 7th Street ever open?

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bel...wn_phoenix.php

It hasn't yet, they're still working on it. Their plan is late summer/early fall opening from what I've heard.

[PHX31]

The residences at Cityscape are 50% leased after 5 months on the market. They are hoping to be 100% leased by Christmas.

That seems a little slow to me, but it really is one of (if not the only) highrise new luxury rental apartment building in Phoenix. Is this a good leasing rate even compared to some other moderately-sized young cities? Or is this just good(-ish) for Phoenix, but woefully slow compared to other places? I really have no idea.

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by PHX31

The residences at Cityscape are 50% leased after 5 months on the market. They are hoping to be 100% leased by Christmas.

That seems a little slow to me, but it really is one of (if not the only) highrise new luxury rental apartment building in Phoenix. Is this a good leasing rate even compared to some other moderately-sized young cities? Or is this just good(-ish) for Phoenix, but woefully slow compared to other places? I really have no idea.

For all the talk about all the great demand that there is, it is kinda slow. But that has a lot to do with the luxury tag. Luxury apartments tend to work better in places that are already established. Most people don't want to shell out tons of money on an up-and-coming place, they want to be where the action is already at (that is why places like SoHo in NYC started off with lower cost living spaces before becoming highly attractive locations). And unfortunately, downtown is still viewed as somewhere without to much to do.

I wouldn't worry too much though. As more projects continue to be built, this mentality will fade.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by PHX31

The residences at Cityscape are 50% leased after 5 months on the market. They are hoping to be 100% leased by Christmas.

That seems a little slow to me, but it really is one of (if not the only) highrise new luxury rental apartment building in Phoenix. Is this a good leasing rate even compared to some other moderately-sized young cities? Or is this just good(-ish) for Phoenix, but woefully slow compared to other places? I really have no idea.

Where did you get those numbers?

To me it also seems a little slow. My recollection was that 44 Monroe filled up a little faster but I wouldn't be alarmed about this, it is the summer after all.

[PHX31]

I wonder how 44 Monroe and the Cityscape residences compare when it comes to luxury/price. Maybe 44 Monroe filled up faster because it wasn't as expensive (excluding the penthouses).

I got the numbers from this:

http://www.downtownphoenix.com/blog/...?utm_campaign=

[Jjs5056]

According to a Seattle article I read a few months back, a market rate building was 100% leased in 6 months, and this was an indication about how intensely hot their rental market is.

Christmas is only an additional 3-4 months off that 12-month figure and that's without the subjective factors of: 1) adding the term 'luxury' as mentioned, pushing buyers toward places like SkyLine first; 2) views of parking lots and South Phoenix; 3) this not being anywhere near the 24/7 environment of Seattl

Also, 44 Monroe converted to apartments long after the building was completed. How many of those renters were people like us looking at this stunning highrise, not understanding how it wasn't filling up, and wishing we could commmit/afford to buy a unit during that time period? Summit filled up at a high speed, as well, due to similar build up.

Breweries
ASUSunDevil/Hoover: You aren't alone in thinking breweries could really help the downtown economy. An article was released a few months back on how Phoenix was hoping to/trying to attract more as they felt breweries give visitors a true sense of a destination. Unfortunately, as usual, talking the talk isn't the same as walking the walk. The Madison and St. James (and connecting space) would've been an amazing redevelopment that could have incorporated a brewery, restaurant, dessert establishment, and dance club with monstrous patio for games for a Yard-like experience.

Similarly, a firm was looking at the buildings on the east side of 7th Street between Roosevelt and the already-rehabbed warehouses (one has red painted accents; the other is green and will house the Mother Brunch Brewery). Continuing to restore and attract establishments along 7th would've done as much as is possible to make it attractive at least on weekends when traffic is calmer, or by car during the week. It also would help make reuse of Garfield buildings much more attractive. But, those talks died once the Circle K demolished and took hold of the entire Roosevelt/7th intersection. As more vehicle-oriented establishments are built, places like Mother Brunch Brewery become risky ventures that seem more and more outside the 'safe zone' of downtown.

The old Tommyknockers Brewery at Buchanan/1st St has been for sale forever. The real estate company has now resorted to promoting the land itself... the surrounding buildings are all occupied, Jackson's on 3rd seems to be open again; I think it's bizarre that a ready-to-go brewery can't attract that investment so close to the sporting area. The infamous Chinatown warehouse on 3rd/Jackson, and Levine properties on 1st/Jackson or Central/Buchanan seem to have enough room and are cool enough structures in good locations, but would require a lot more work.

Lastly, I don't know if they're big enough, but if Ballpark Apartments would do the inevitable and sell their huge piece of land, I think the El Fresno and HP Partner Building on 3rd/Buchanan would make great drinking establishment/restaurant partners given the large space (hi, patio) connecting them. A super modern, or even all glass extension showing the brewery equipment would be neat.

[combusean]

For a point of comparison, Alta Phoenix (skyline lofts) was 85% leased after 14 months.

However, they significantly reduced rents for the first go around. A friend of mine that had a unit there was priced out by the time he went to renew.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by PHX31

The residences at Cityscape are 50% leased after 5 months on the market. They are hoping to be 100% leased by Christmas.

That seems a little slow to me, but it really is one of (if not the only) highrise new luxury rental apartment building in Phoenix. Is this a good leasing rate even compared to some other moderately-sized young cities? Or is this just good(-ish) for Phoenix, but woefully slow compared to other places? I really have no idea.

I did some historical research- 44 Monroe was 43% leased after 4 months, 56% after 6 months:

http://www.downtownphoenix.com/blog/...ning-exposure/

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...=98405&page=59

50% after 5 months sounds about right.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by nickw252

I did some historical research- 44 Monroe was 43% leased after 4 months, 56% after 6 months:

http://www.downtownphoenix.com/blog/...ning-exposure/

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...=98405&page=59

50% after 5 months sounds about right.

I'm sure CityScape would've loved to have had the additional marketing of sitting completely finished with signs advertising high condo prices within view of USAC and Chase for 2 years prior to switching to a rental model with more modest pricing.

44 Monroe was completed ~1/1/2009; began renting ~3/1/2011.

CityScape is definitely outpacing 44 Monroe when you try to get their very different situations equalized; not arguing, just want to make sure the strong residential market/demand downtown is given due credit.

Hopefully, the Barrister project helps justify CityScape's luxury branding a little more. I'd still take a 44M unit at the moment given the respective areas.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Hopefully, the Barrister project helps justify CityScape's luxury branding a little more. I'd still take a 44M unit at the moment given the respective areas.

And considering 44 Monroe is a much nicer looking building from the outside. The CityScape tower is so value engineered and ugly, I'd be embarrassed to pay luxury rental prices to live in a metallic, brutalist mess.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

And considering 44 Monroe is a much nicer looking building from the outside. The CityScape tower is so value engineered and ugly, I'd be embarrassed to pay luxury rental prices to live in a metallic, brutalist mess.

I think they let the Palomar sit on its own for so long to make the finished tower looked more impressive; it almost worked - the finished product is SO much better than that gray stub was. Up close, I am sure the materials look just as cheap, seeing as every other part of the project looks like it could melt in a few more summers - the plastic gray windows on the retail building, the 'public art' by Chipotle that needs to just be ripped out, the haphazard approach to filling in the gray 2nd-story rectangles with posters, the heinous signage for CVS, 'Bowling,' etc.

I forgot that the other stellar views are of the gigantic roof atop the 2-story retail; I may have mentioned this, but they donated some great prizes to a charity event I held, and after wrapping up and thanking them, I suggested doing something - ANYTHING - with that roof. It was such an eyesore from the Palomar; I recommended a patio for Copper Blues since it lacks any outdoor space, or just simply a green roof to host things markets and yoga, etc. "Thanks for the ideas!" So many 'small' fixes (considering their damn budget and freebies) like that, a door on Washington into Chipotle, corner door and patio into Chloe's...

Shitty design and materials aside, the damn thing is working... 1 retail space left behind V's Barbershop (and replacement for Lawless Denim? Saw some really sketchy reviews and it isn't listed in the directory), and ahead of the game in terms of renting out the apartments.

[HX_Guy]

Following up on the "Psycho" building, details on the actual bids...

RED, Levine, PB Bell among bidders for ‘Psycho’ building

The city of Phoenix has released the names of the seven bidders looking to redevelop the Barrister Place building at Central Avenue and Jefferson Street.

The vacant historic building is best known for being featured in Alfred Hitchcock’s 1960 movie "Psycho." The property, owned by the city, is just east of the US Airways Center.
One of the bids includes Hansji Corp., a Southern California company looking to developer a 315-room Marriott hotel at the Luhrs property across Central from Barrister Place.
P.B. Bell is teaming with central Phoenix redevelopment expert Davis Enterprises on a bid. Bell has a number of apartment complexes across the Valley, including properties in Chandler, northeast Phoenix and Tempe.

RED owns CityScape, across Jefferson from the building. It also manages leasing at the Collier Center downtown and has helped turn around the Town & Country shopping center at Camelback Road and 20th Street.

Levine has purchased and redeveloped several old warehouse buildings just south of downtown Phoenix. His redeveloped warehouses have attracted art galleries, technology companies and Arizona State University arts programs.

Levine and RED Managing Partner Mike Ebert are both big downtown boosters.

City spokeswoman Sina Matthes said details on the Barrister Place bids remain confidential as Phoenix officials evaluate the proposals from:

• Red Development LLC.
• Michael Levine/ Levine Machine LLC.
• Ventra Group LLC.
• Equus Group Inc.
• Crescent Bay Development Services/Crescent Bay Holdings; Sunbelt Holdings; HHLuhrs, LLC/Hansji Corp.; SmithGroupJJR.
• PB Bell/Davis Enterprises Collaboration.
• Desco Arizona LLC.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...or-psycho.html

[PHX31]

Awesome. I hope Levine wins. But I also hope it turns into a residential building (with something else on site) and I don't know if he has any residential experience.

[HX_Guy]

Sounds like the PB Bell/Davis Enterprises bid would have the best shot at residential since that's what they do. I don't really want RED or Hanji to get it, they are too much downtown already, would be better to diversify a little I think.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Following up on the "Psycho" building, details on the actual bids...

Sorry for so many posts. I'll stop after this one.

Looking at the list, the Sunbelt/Hansji/SmithGroup combination looks like our Council's wet dream. Also, seeing that generating revenue for the city is a criteria of the RFP... and those future earnings should potentially impact the city's budget and, thus, our level of service, shouldn't we be allowed access to these proposals as indirect stakeholders? I know, I know... I just want to know MORE!

• Red Development LLC: NO! We need another entity managing the development of a major property to ensure RED keeps CityScape and Colliers up to market. They've also shown they can't develop a true urban space, and I feel as though they'll leave the remaining property untouched as they have with the remaining CityScape pad; focus on making Colliers a worthwhile destination, please.
• Michael Levine/ Levine Machine LLC: I trust Levine more than anyone to develop something that is 'right' for the Barrister building, but does he have that much experience developing empty parcels? I question his ability to integrate his Barrister ideas into a larger project.
• Ventra Group LLC. - Not seeing any urban designs in their portfolio.
• Equus Group Inc. - My preliminary vote; really impressive resume of urban residential projects, mixed use projects, sustainable projects, etc.
• Crescent Bay Development Services/Crescent Bay Holdings; Sunbelt Holdings; HHLuhrs, LLC/Hansji Corp.; SmithGroupJJR. - NO! Hansji has been a complete disappointment in their development of the Luhrs property; yes, the economy tanked, but restoration aside, they weren't able to attract any big tenants for the office portions, had only a Subway as a retail tenant for 5+ years, and have struggled to get even one of their original 3 towers off the ground - a hotel in an in-demand market; SmithGroupJR turned out a terrible design for Central Station that met the bare minimum requirements of the RFP and I think this site deserves more creativity. A shame Sunbelt couldn't partner with another team.
• PB Bell/Davis Enterprises Collaboration. - I'll let others comment on DAVIS; from what I have read, for example: his attitude and proposal for The Row, I'm not a fan. And PB Bell sounds like a suburban designer and an urban, master plan is needed here.
• Desco Arizona LLC. - unsure who this is?

[Jjs5056]

PHX31 and HX - can you guys write my posts from now on? =/

[PHX31]

/\Why? I enjoy reading your longer-than-one-line posts.

Does this Barrister building redevelopment include the entire block, or basically just the western half of the block? I can't find it.

[HooverDam]

^ My understanding was its the whole block, parking lots and all.

Originally Posted by PHX31

Awesome. I hope Levine wins. But I also hope it turns into a residential building (with something else on site) and I don't know if he has any residential experience.

He doesn't have residential experience. He also actively DOES NOT want people living in/near the warehouse district. Though I don't know if he'd consider Barrister within the area he's trying to keep people out of. Its very odd, I don't know why he thinks the warehouse district can ever be vibrant without a strong residential component.

I think he's done tons of good things for Downtown, but unless he has way more $$ than we know about, I don't think he'll win that bid.

[Jjs5056]

The RFP includes an L-shape piece of property on the Central-1st St; Jefferson-Madison block. Picture Barrister extending south to Madison - it includes that entire piece. It also includes about half the remaining parking lot to the east, but does NOT extend all the way to 1st St.

With the building is currently built out as office space, and looking at this list, I imagine most of the proposals submitted left the use as is, with a focus on bringing the city sales tax in the retail uses proposed... I expect many office proposals, with a co-working space in the basement (I'm going to throw up at the announcement of the next co-working space...), upscale restaurant/bar in the main retail space (everyone has Bitter and Twister on their mind - think speakeasy type of restaurants) and a coffee bar, of course! This one opening up the courtyard to the east of the building (aka former parking lot with foliage and non-historic brick walls).

I also expect to see many Phased proposals, with Phase II being the parking lot to the east, with an upscale hotel proposed over retail that opens up to the same courtyard as the coffee bar. Part of Phase II will be built: the monstrous parking garage, of course, but don't worry, it's being setback into the corner, surrounded by surface parking that will eventually become the hotel and wrap the garage.

It just makes no sense to see someone like Hansji on this list; they couldn't make residential pencil out on the land they own NOW with plenty of city help... it's quite clear they'll simply do Luhrs, Part Deux and use the rest of the land for spillover parking for their new hotel. And, why would RED want to develop office OR residential before CityScape Residences and Colliers Office/Retail are 100% leased? Finally, isn't DAVIS responsible for a decent amount of the blight in Roosevelt? Trying again not to hold the economy against anyone, but...

[Jjs5056]

Hoover - I have never heard of Levine not wanting residential in the warehouse district? Where have you heard that? He is currently actively promoting his warehouse on 1st/Jackson for the fact that it can withstand 2-3 additional levels on top: mentioning that it's the perfect building for lofts from floors 2+ with ground level retail.

I'm actually pretty sad looking at this list and seeing the partnerships because the politics start creeping up - hope they surprise me. I really wanted to see this building converted into residential; all of our other mid-highrise historic building are offices aside from Orpheum, and AFAIK, we don't have any more left? Banking on experiencing the building through retail is risky given Hansji's inability to recruit at Luhrs, and the Security Building's 7+ year vacancies...

Historic condos with a converted penthouse restaurant built off the 'Psycho' era would be such a unique offering. And, as mentioned, build the Class A office next door with plenty of space for divisible retail, so that almost everything facing Jefferson is non-bar/non-restaurant retail (aka H&M, Forever 21, American Apparrel, TJMaxx, Nordstrom Rack, Bloomingdales Outlet...); leave those for the south lot to complement Bitter and Twisted, restaurant/bar at the Marriott, and the entry to the warehouse district (though 1 block further with the demise of the Madison block). This could be your jazz/swing-style lounge with big band music and maybe ballroom classes, jazz jam sessions, etc.