Does Toronto have the same magnetic pull among Canadians that NYC has for Americans?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I feel like I've encounter as many people from Vancouver in NYC as I have from Toronto. Montreal seems to send the fewest even though it's the closest major Canadian city/metro to NYC.

It may be the closest but the English-speaking community of Montreal is only around 500,000 or so.

[nito]

Originally Posted by Docere

Canada, given its large geography and bilingual population, is more decentralized.

On the global cities list, 4 are alpha or beta.

While in the UK and France, there are no beta cities and just one alpha (alpha+ in the case of Paris and ++ in the case of London).

Australia, similar to Canada in its large geography, has 4 cities that are alpha or beta.

The large geography of Australia and Canada tends to gravitate the population to a few centres, in contrast to much of Europe where you have a high density of distinct population centres in close proximity to each other, segregated by anti-sprawl measures, with arguably a superior level of transit connectivity between them than what you’d find within North American metro areas.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

It may be the closest but the English-speaking community of Montreal is only around 500,000 or so.

Though Canadian francophones do go to New York City a lot to visit as it's an easy straight shot down from Montreal and only 600 km. (Perhaps we don't show up as much in NYC workplaces.)

I always hear plenty of French when I'm down there, including our own accent fairly regularly and also francophone accents from Europe, the Caribbean and Africa.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Docere

It may be the closest but the English-speaking community of Montreal is only around 500,000 or so.

Depends on your criteria for English-speaking. For Québec anglos, the large, large, large majority of whom reside in Greater Montréal and on the Island proper:

Mother-tongue population is now upwards of 800k - 600k for English as mother tongue only and 843k for English in combinaton with another language.

English as 'first official language spoken,' which naturally will encompass many newcomers, is now over a million.

Due to size difference between municipalities, it's possible that there are more anglos in Montreal proper than there are in Vancouver proper.

[Docere]

480,000 speak English at home on Montreal Island (24% of the population).

693,000 in the Montreal CMA (16% of the population).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Docere

480,000 speak English at home on Montreal Island (24% of the population).

693,000 in the Montreal CMA (16% of the population).

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Docere

480,000 speak English at home on Montreal Island (24% of the population).

693,000 in the Montreal CMA (16% of the population).

Not sure where the other few hundred thousand people are living in Quebec...

[Docere]

With multiple responses (English is at least one of the languages spoken at home):

571,000 on Montreal Island
844,000 in Montreal CMA

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is an exaggeration about PEI. It's not the richest province but it's economy isn't all tourism. Relative to its population and size it's a pretty big agricultural player. I mean basically the entire province's landscape is all farms. And of course there is the fishery including some lucrative niches like lobster.

PEI has a decently diversified economy for what it is. Not sure if it's still there but Charlottetown had a small Ubisoft office for example. I think the province is one of the better run in Canada, and it seems to support the idea of smaller governments working better in some ways.

It's a bit hard to explain what the Maritimes are like in American terms. They're not like a major region or country and there are no big metropolises there, but the outside pull is a bit weaker than in North America and Halifax is probably better thought of as a smaller Portland OR rather than being like Eugene (and Charlottetown is like a mini Eugene, not a small state level regional town without amenities). Yes, Toronto is the big city for Maritimers, but it's a 2 hour flight away, not a 2 hour drive away.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

You know how many US Americans dream of making it big in NYC, moving to the big bad city, the fairy tale/mythical status of the place etc....

Within Canada, is Toronto basically considered the ultimate goal for many to achieve their dreams, make it big, or live at the pinnacle of where everything is happening like NYC is for the US, or London is for England?

Historically, that alpha city for Canadians was Montreal. As recently as the 1990s, it's where a ton of Canadians went after high school/university to experience the big city although career wise it's been Toronto since ~1980 due to Montreal being francophone.

It bears mentioning, however, that Canada never had a true global metropolis of its own so a fair number left Canada altogether and went to cities like New York/London. Canadians still go to these places but the rapid ascension of Toronto has changed the balance.

Young Canadians who used to move to New York/London increasingly look to Toronto. The city is still a relative minnow (demographically, culturally, economically) next to those global heavyweights but the increasing pull of Toronto is undeniable. If growth rates stay the same, the Toronto-Hamilton-Oshawa metropolitan area could find itself the 5th largest in the Western world by 2028; trailing only New York, London, Paris, and Los Angeles. Population growth will surely head down from the blistering pace 2022-2023 but 5th feels more like a 'when' than an 'if'. Quite shocking, actually.


2023 Population: 8,110,389 (+251,713)
2028 Population: 9,368,954 (+1,258,565)


https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1710014801

[craigs]

Originally Posted by isaidso

If growth rates stay the same, the Toronto-Hamilton-Oshawa metropolitan area could find itself the 5th largest in the Western world by 2028; trailing only New York, London, Paris, and Los Angeles.

Are Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janeiro, and Lima not part of the "Western world?" Those metros are already more populous than your 2028 projection for Toronto.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by someone123

PEI has a decently diversified economy for what it is. Not sure if it's still there but Charlottetown had a small Ubisoft office for example. I think the province is one of the better run in Canada, and it seems to support the idea of smaller governments working better in some ways.

It's a bit hard to explain what the Maritimes are like in American terms. They're not like a major region or country and there are no big metropolises there, but the outside pull is a bit weaker than in North America and Halifax is probably better thought of as a smaller Portland OR rather than being like Eugene (and Charlottetown is like a mini Eugene, not a small state level regional town without amenities). Yes, Toronto is the big city for Maritimers, but it's a 2 hour flight away, not a 2 hour drive away.

I think that's a good way of putting it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by craigs

Are Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires, Rio de Janeiro, and Lima not part of the "Western world?" Those metros are already more populous than your 2028 projection for Toronto.

Even Tokyo could arguably be counted in.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even Tokyo could arguably be counted in.

Yeah, as well as Seoul. Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan seem much Western-like, even though they're in the Far East.
Democracy, I guess.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Yeah, as well as Seoul. Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan seem much Western-like, even though they're in the Far East.
Democracy, I guess.

Uhhhh no. Try working with some of them. They are all very culturally different.

My partner works for a Japanese company, and some of his coworkers are Japanese---the company pays for their housing in Pasadena. How they do things even in the workplace is very.... different---and sometimes frustrating, for my partner.

[ssiguy]

Canada is a country of two solitudes...........English & French. This is very much the case with which cities are "magnets". For French Canadians it's Montreal and for Anglo and most minorities, except those who are from French speaking countries, it's Toronto.

Overall, Toronto is the biggest and most important city with it's large population, home to the nation's banks, financial sector, and largest manufacturing base. This can be seen in the fact that Toronto is often considered the most racially/ethnically diverse city on the planet.

In terms of English Canada, it's dominance is overwhelmingly in nearly everyway. From mass media to social policy to economic power to culture to arts to academia to entertainment to manufacturing to hi-tech to corporate headquarters to retail to communications..........in English Canada there is no second place. For Anglo Canada, Toronto is not Sydney or Melbourne but rather Sydney AND Melbourne. There are only 2 exceptions: Ottawa is a centre for politics but still gets it's marching orders from Toronto & Montreal and Calgary dominates in the oil & gas sector.

Unless you want to be a gov't policy wonk or an oil barren, Toronto is, by far, the nation's dominate city and draws Canadians and immigrants there due to it.

[Docere]

2021 Census

Canada: 36,992,000
English Canada: 28,490,000
Toronto-Hamilton-Oshawa: 7,402,000

20% of all Canadians and 26% of the population of English Canada lives in and around Toronto.

[Docere]

More people live in the Greater Toronto Area than in BC.

More people live in the Greater Toronto Area than in Alberta.

[Docere]

5-year migration (2021 Census)

Intraprovincial Migrants

Montreal CMA 107,560
Ottawa CMA (Ontario part) 62,850
Toronto CMA 119,845
Calgary CMA 48,495
Vancouver CMA 44,760

Interprovincial Migrants

Montreal CMA 43,280
Ottawa CMA (Ontario part) 46,270
Toronto CMA 80,555
Calgary CMA 60,215
Vancouver CMA 81,120

Francophones:

Intraprovincial Migrants

Montreal CMA 92,985
Ottawa CMA (Ontario part) 6,090
Toronto CMA 1,890
Calgary CMA 675
Vancouver CMA 325

Interprovincial Migrants

Montreal CMA 9,735
Ottawa CMA (Ontario part) 8,885
Toronto CMA 3,405
Calgary CMA 1,820
Vancouver CMA 2,590

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by isaidso

It bears mentioning, however, that Canada never had a true global metropolis of its own so a fair number left Canada altogether and went to cities like New York/London. Canadians still go to these places but the rapid ascension of Toronto has changed the balance.

Young Canadians who used to move to New York/London increasingly look to Toronto. The city is still a relative minnow (demographically, culturally, economically) next to those global heavyweights but the increasing pull of Toronto is undeniable.

While there is no doubt some truth to this - Toronto's stature domestically (and perhaps, internationally) is larger than ever - I'm also curious as to how this squares up in the face of record-breaking emigration from Canada in 2023, record-breaking out-migration from Toronto & Ontario, and reports that 40% of Ontarians are "considering" leaving the province entirely.

The rapid growth of Toronto in recent years has likely caused more new problems than it's solved, and has come at the expense of the city's quality of life; arguably leaving it as a less attractive place to live. Young Canadians will continue to flock to it, but will be less likely to build long-term lives & businesses there; while a weak economy and no real competitive advantage on the cost-of-living front will drive the best-and-brightest to opt to go the US or abroad in increasing numbers. After a few decades of improvement on this front, Canada's brain drain is getting worse - not better.