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  #7941  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 3:53 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
The English, being civilized, didn't kill 100,000 IRA and their families in response to the 500 deaths!? I mean how can you separate an IRA member from his cousins club?
I believe the Argentinian invasion killed 1 person and they killed hundreds of Argentinians so ratio wise it was a lot worse than IDF so far at least.
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  #7942  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 3:55 AM
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So ratio wise, the Palestinians are allowed to kill 10 million Israelis?
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  #7943  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 4:24 AM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
I believe the Argentinian invasion killed 1 person and they killed hundreds of Argentinians so ratio wise it was a lot worse than IDF so far at least.
Is this satire? First it was only 2% of the population killed (1 in 75 children) now this? People are people. These sick metrics the Israeli defenders use to justify this barbaric, revenge fuelled slaughter are asinine.
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  #7944  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 4:30 AM
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What infrastructure? It's all been destroyed. Where would you run your operations from if you lived in a tiny country like Gaza, what used to be one of the densest places on earth?
This!!! No shit they hide under the cities. There’s nowhere else to go. This whole argument is bad faith insanity. As evil as Hamas is, why on earth would they operate in the open where they will just be killed? It’s like asking why don’t Ukrainian and Russian soldiers just fight out in the open instead of in trenches and burnt out buildings?

And speaking of Ukrainians, why is it that they aren’t simply targeting all civilian infrastructure in bordering Russian cities? Surely they have the justification. But they don’t want to lower themselves to the level of Putin. So they operate with morality.

It seems with the billions upon billions of advanced American weapons Israel’s been given they have the technology to not obliterate as many collateral targets as possible. Then again they’ve openly admitted to preferring dumb bombs cause Palestinians aren’t worth more expensive systems. Hence WW2 level rubbled cities.
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  #7945  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 4:33 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Is this satire? First it was only 2% of the population killed (1 in 75 children) now this? People are people. These sick metrics the Israeli defenders use to justify this barbaric, revenge fuelled slaughter are asinine.
You are claiming what Isreal is doing is uniquely evil or at least only in the league as genocides. As has been pointed out many times this is not remotely the case. Thus if you are only calling out Isreal we have to wonder if you are an anti-Semite. Any criticism of Isreal can't be labeled as such but at some point what else are we to think?
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  #7946  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 4:40 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
This!!! No shit they hide under the cities. There’s nowhere else to go. This whole argument is bad faith insanity. As evil as Hamas is, why on earth would they operate in the open where they will just be killed? It’s like asking why don’t Ukrainian and Russian soldiers just fight out in the open instead of in trenches and burnt out buildings?

And speaking of Ukrainians, why is it that they aren’t simply targeting all bordering Russian cities? Surely they have the justification. But they don’t want to lower themselves to the level of Putin. So they operate with morality.

Furthermore, how does this justify Israel just killing everyone? Surely with the billions upon billions of advanced American weapons they’ve been given they have the technology to not obliterate as many collateral targets as possible. Then again they’ve openly admitted to preferring dumb bombs cause Palestinians aren’t worth more expensive systems. Hence WW2 level rubbled cities.
They don't have the weapons. They rightly use whatever they can to stop attacks on their civilians and military. If Russians put bombers on top of civilian buildings and Ukraine had enough missiles to target them it would of course be justified
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  #7947  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 4:41 AM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
You are claiming what Isreal is doing is uniquely evil or at least only in the league as genocides. As has been pointed out many times this is not remotely the case. Thus if you are only calling out Isreal we have to wonder if you are an anti-Semite. Any criticism of Isreal can't be labeled as such but at some point what else are we to think?
I have never defended Hamas. I condemned their attack when it happened. It was horrific and barbaric and awful. I have no ill will towards Jewish people. Opposing an extremist, hateful, corrupt Israeli government with a leader who faces jail time when he leaves office is not anti semitic.

Opposing mass slaughter of innocent civilians and forced famine does not make me anti semitic. Israel is a state like any other and is not above international laws. They have contravened multiple war crimes conventions and check off at least 3 of the 5 markers of genocide according to the UN centre for genocide prevention.
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  #7948  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 4:46 AM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
They don't have the weapons. They rightly use whatever they can to stop attacks on their civilians and military. If Russians put bombers on top of civilian buildings and Ukraine had enough missiles to target them it would of course be justified
Where was the evidence of the Hamas secret headquarters under the hospital?
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  #7949  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 4:51 AM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
I have never defended Hamas. I condemned their attack when it happened. I have no ill will towards Jewish people. Opposing an extremist, hateful, corrupt Israeli government with a leader who faces jail time when he leaves office is not anti semitic.
That is all fair. But claiming Isreal is uniquely responding in a genocidal way when it's been pointed out the many similar responses. Wheras every agreed genocide is very dissimilar. Even Give even one example of killing civilians on purpose in a summary way? It takes a lot more than such incident to be genocide. There are dozen examples of Russian summary killings. Taking children and stripping them of their nationality. And Ukrainian prosecutors say there is growing evidence of genocide. Wheras the woke masses claim the first bomb that killed a civilian was clear evidence of Isreali genocide,

You see no double standard. I think it may not be entirely anti semitic but also because Isreal is part of the evil west who are the cause of all problems. The same reason the tankies support Russia because Ukraine gets support from the US so must be imperilists.
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  #7950  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 5:00 AM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
That is all fair. But claiming Isreal is uniquely responding in a genocidal way when it's been pointed out the many similar responses. Wheras every agreed genocide is very dissimilar. Even Give even one example of killing civilians on purpose in a summary way? It takes a lot more than such incident to be genocide. There are dozen examples of Russian summary killings. Taking children and stripping them of their nationality. And Ukrainian prosecutors say there is growing evidence of genocide. Wheras the woke masses claim the first bomb that killed a civilian was clear evidence of Isreali genocide,

You see no double standard. I think it may not be entirely anti semitic but also because Isreal is part of the evil west who are the cause of all problems. The same reason the tankies support Russia because Ukraine gets support from the US so must be imperilists.
Yes, Russia is committing genocide. They have built their entire empire on applying such technics. It is wrong now and each and every other time Russia has done it.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation that needs to be contained and eliminated if possible.

Isreal is also committing genocide.

There is no double standard. All three have demonstrated poop behaviour, just in different ways.
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  #7951  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 5:04 AM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
That is all fair. But claiming Isreal is uniquely responding in a genocidal way when it's been pointed out the many similar responses. Wheras every agreed genocide is very dissimilar. Even Give even one example of killing civilians on purpose in a summary way? It takes a lot more than such incident to be genocide. There are dozen examples of Russian summary killings. Taking children and stripping them of their nationality. And Ukrainian prosecutors say there is growing evidence of genocide. Wheras the woke masses claim the first bomb that killed a civilian was clear evidence of Isreali genocide,

You see no double standard. I think it may not be entirely anti semitic but also because Isreal is part of the evil west who are the cause of all problems. The same reason the tankies support Russia because Ukraine gets support from the US so must be imperilists.
I’m ending this as you haven’t acknowledged a single point I’ve made and refuse to acknowledge the heaps of evidence (and dead bodies) showing the IDF’s culpability. Reducing the protests to wokeism tells me everything I need to know about your political views and blindness to reality. I guess devout Muslims across the world are woke too?

In any case this is pointless. And btw I fully support Ukraine and can’t understand how others can condemn Russia for bombing daycares and hospitals but not Israel. Putin claims there were nazis hiding there amongst regular citizens to justify it. Sound familiar?

Last edited by O-tacular; May 5, 2024 at 5:36 AM.
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  #7952  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 11:25 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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You see the word "genocide" tossed around a lot these days. To keep things in context, here is how the United Nations defines genocide:

Quote:
The word “genocide” was first coined by Polish lawyer Raphäel Lemkin in 1944 in his book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe. It consists of the Greek prefix genos, meaning race or tribe, and the Latin suffix cide, meaning killing. Lemkin developed the term partly in response to the Nazi policies of systematic murder of Jewish people during the Holocaust, but also in response to previous instances in history of targeted actions aimed at the destruction of particular groups of people. Later on, Raphäel Lemkin led the campaign to have genocide recognised and codified as an international crime.

Genocide was first recognised as a crime under international law in 1946 by the United Nations General Assembly (A/RES/96-I). It was codified as an independent crime in the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (the Genocide Convention). The Convention has been ratified by 153 States (as of April 2022). The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has repeatedly stated that the Convention embodies principles that are part of general customary international law. This means that whether or not States have ratified the Genocide Convention, they are all bound as a matter of law by the principle that genocide is a crime prohibited under international law. The ICJ has also stated that the prohibition of genocide is a peremptory norm of international law (or ius cogens) and consequently, no derogation from it is allowed.

The definition of the crime of genocide as contained in Article II of the Genocide Convention was the result of a negotiating process and reflects the compromise reached among United Nations Member States in 1948 at the time of drafting the Convention. Genocide is defined in the same terms as in the Genocide Convention in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (Article 6), as well as in the statutes of other international and hybrid jurisdictions. Many States have also criminalized genocide in their domestic law; others have yet to do so.
Definition
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Elements of the crime

The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.

The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

Opinions obviously vary, and will be debated based upon one's views, preferences, and even ethnicity. Often the word appears to be used to advance a cause or enforce an opinion based upon emotion.

There will be disagreement, but it's not clear to me that Israel is guilty of genocide on the basis of intent as described in the above definition:
Quote:
To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.
From the context of genocide, 34,000 deaths in Gaza out of a population of 5 million Palestinians does not appear to be an act intended to destroy the Palestinian people. It is tragic regardless, and unnecessary, IMHO.

The IDF's actions, IMHO, have been an overzealous, ham-fisted military attempt to eliminate Hamas without enough regard for civilian lives, their homes and infrastructure that have been destroyed. The resultant famine and other hardships put on the people in the affected regions of Gaza is horrible and unacceptable, and needs to be resolved immediately. Over and above that, there doesn't seem to be a plan to rebuild the destroyed areas of Gaza, or a path to a 2-state solution that needs to be an end goal.

Nobody can bring back the 34,000 lives lost to the IDF's military actions (or the 1139 lives lost in the brutal Oct. 7 attacks on Israel), nor will the survivors of any of these actions ever be able to live normal lives again. This is a tragedy on so many levels.

Regarding the university protests, their emotions are clear and understandable, but IMHO we have to draw the line at violence and hate propaganda. The intent of the popular slogan "From the river to the sea" comes from a terrorist organization's desire for the genocide of the Israeli people, even though there have been attempts to whitewash the slogan by indicating it has some other, less nefarious, meaning. Sometimes, it's not clear whether some of the participants are all that knowledgeable about the situation, and some even seem to care more about creating conflict than achieving any goals related to the cause.

Also, related to the protests, I find it disappointing that there has been no call from these groups for release of the remaining Israeli hostages (if any of them are still alive). From a humanitarian point of view, these people have suffered every bit as much as the citizens of Gaza, and if people really want peace, the release of the hostages should be one of the goals of the protesters.

I also feel sorry for the remaining students of these universities who simply paid for the chance to receive an education, and have worked hard all year to pass their courses, only to have the end of the semester blown up by protests about a war that's happening on the other side of the globe.

Anyhow, this has strayed somewhat from Canadian politics, but I think it's safe to say that we all have been affected by the Oct. 7 attacks and the resultant Israel-Hamas war to some degree. It has been an emotional time for many, and these actions have clearly put the world, that has already been shaken by Russia's invasion of Ukraine, in a less-stable state than it has been for many decades. Hopefully we can all find peace again at some point in the future.
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  #7953  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 12:11 PM
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Excellent and very thoughtful post.
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  #7954  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 12:12 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Don’t you know, it is 2024, legal definitions don’t matter, only what Tik Tok says matters.
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  #7955  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
You see the word "genocide" tossed around a lot these days. To keep things in context, here is how the United Nations defines genocide:


https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

Opinions obviously vary, and will be debated based upon one's views, preferences, and even ethnicity. Often the word appears to be used to advance a cause or enforce an opinion based upon emotion.

There will be disagreement, but it's not clear to me that Israel is guilty of genocide on the basis of intent as described in the above definition:


From the context of genocide, 34,000 deaths in Gaza out of a population of 5 million Palestinians does not appear to be an act intended to destroy the Palestinian people. It is tragic regardless, and unnecessary, IMHO.

The IDF's actions, IMHO, have been an overzealous, ham-fisted military attempt to eliminate Hamas without enough regard for civilian lives, their homes and infrastructure that have been destroyed. The resultant famine and other hardships put on the people in the affected regions of Gaza is horrible and unacceptable, and needs to be resolved immediately. Over and above that, there doesn't seem to be a plan to rebuild the destroyed areas of Gaza, or a path to a 2-state solution that needs to be an end goal.

Nobody can bring back the 34,000 lives lost to the IDF's military actions (or the 1139 lives lost in the brutal Oct. 7 attacks on Israel), nor will the survivors of any of these actions ever be able to live normal lives again. This is a tragedy on so many levels.

Regarding the university protests, their emotions are clear and understandable, but IMHO we have to draw the line at violence and hate propaganda. The intent of the popular slogan "From the river to the sea" comes from a terrorist organization's desire for the genocide of the Israeli people, even though there have been attempts to whitewash the slogan by indicating it has some other, less nefarious, meaning. Sometimes, it's not clear whether some of the participants are all that knowledgeable about the situation, and some even seem to care more about creating conflict than achieving any goals related to the cause.

Also, related to the protests, I find it disappointing that there has been no call from these groups for release of the remaining Israeli hostages (if any of them are still alive). From a humanitarian point of view, these people have suffered every bit as much as the citizens of Gaza, and if people really want peace, the release of the hostages should be one of the goals of the protesters.

I also feel sorry for the remaining students of these universities who simply paid for the chance to receive an education, and have worked hard all year to pass their courses, only to have the end of the semester blown up by protests about a war that's happening on the other side of the globe.

Anyhow, this has strayed somewhat from Canadian politics, but I think it's safe to say that we all have been affected by the Oct. 7 attacks and the resultant Israel-Hamas war to some degree. It has been an emotional time for many, and these actions have clearly put the world, that has already been shaken by Russia's invasion of Ukraine, in a less-stable state than it has been for many decades. Hopefully we can all find peace again at some point in the future.
I’m glad you posted that since it can be argued that Israel fits most of the following criteria in bold:

Quote:
A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
And I’m not alone in that assessment:

Quote:
In the report, Albanese said there are clear indications that Israel has violated three of the five acts listed under the UN Genocide Convention in its war on Gaza.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2...enocide-report
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  #7956  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Don’t you know, it is 2024, legal definitions don’t matter, only what Tik Tok says matters.
Don’t you know in 2024 IDF defenders have grown too tired to defend its daily war crimes and have now resorted to distracting from the actual conflict by focusing on student protests and mocking the sincerity of their participants. Same as their forefathers who would have called Vietnam protests and desegregation protests ‘woke’ nonsense.
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  #7957  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 2:16 PM
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As has been stated countless times (thanks Mark for doing it again this morning), you need intent too, not merely a handful of killing (especially not just 2% when you clearly have the military ability to kill much more if that's what you wanted)

For example, dropping a nuke on Hiroshima wasn't genocide, as there was no American plan to exterminate the Japanese as a people.
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  #7958  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 2:21 PM
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Also, I fail to see what the Feds have to do with this. If you want to discuss genocide, discuss the one ongoing here in Canada under JT's watch (MMIWG). I might end up moving the off-topic posts to a new Israel/Hamas/Gaza thread.
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  #7959  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 2:34 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Don’t you know in 2024 IDF defenders have grown too tired to defend its daily war crimes and have now resorted to distracting from the actual conflict by focusing on student protests and mocking the sincerity of their participants. Same as their forefathers who would have called Vietnam protests and desegregation protests ‘woke’ nonsense.
I am not defending frequent war crimes. I am criticizing the useful idiot position that Israel can’t defend itself because the Hamas makes widespread use of human shields, which is a war crime, and the further useful idiot position that turns a blind eye to war crimes everywhere else and for some reason really only cares about war crimes if tik tok tells them to care about them.
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  #7960  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
As has been stated countless times (thanks Mark for doing it again this morning), you need intent too, not merely a handful of killing (especially not just 2% when you clearly have the military ability to kill much more if that's what you wanted)

For example, dropping a nuke on Hiroshima wasn't genocide, as there was no American plan to exterminate the Japanese as a people.
Thankfully Israeli government ministers have made statements declaring their intentions:

Quote:
‘Nakba 2023’: Israel right-wing ministers' comments add fuel to Palestinian fears

“Some of that rhetoric can be seen as potentially genocidal from the way that it dehumanizes Palestinian civilians,” one expert told NBC News after comments by Israeli government officials.

TEL AVIV — As Israel's assault on the Gaza Strip intensifies, so has the rhetoric from some members of the country's government.

From raising the idea of dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza to ensuring that the present crisis results in a “Nakba 2023," a number of right-wing ministers have made public comments that compound the fears some have for the 2.3 million Palestinians in the enclave.

“Some of that rhetoric can be seen as potentially genocidal from the way that it dehumanizes Palestinian civilians,” Dov Waxman, director of UCLA’s Y&S Nazarian Center for Israel Studies, said in a phone interview with NBC News.

He noted that the right-wing ministers who made the comments are "not in the war cabinet," so their words can only have so much impact on Israeli policy. But, he said hearing ministers make suggestions like “flattening Gaza” with a nuclear bomb was concerning nonetheless.

Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter told Israeli Channel 12 over the weekend that the war would be “Gaza’s Nakba,” using the Arabic word for “catastrophe” that many use to describe the 1948 displacement of roughly 700,000 Palestinians who were expelled from their land in what became Israel.

“We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba,” Dichter, a member of the right-wing Likud party, said Saturday, in comments widely reported by Israeli media. “From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war — as the Israeli army seeks to do in Gaza — with masses between the tanks and the soldiers,” he said. Pressed on his use of the word “Nakba” to describe the situation in Gaza, he said again: “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna123909

And this:

Quote:
Israeli minister's call to 'erase' Palestinian village an incitement to violence, US says

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ys-2023-03-01/

And this:

Quote:

Israeli minister condemned for claiming ‘no such thing’ as a Palestinian people
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...zalel-smotrich

And the clincher from the Israeli defence minister:

Quote:
“We are fighting against human animals”. This is how Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant announced what he called a “complete siege” on Gaza, following a surprise attack by Hamas on Israel.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/progra...-siege-on-gaza
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