Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

It's worth noting that in areas of Canada where similar approaches to French as the US adopted were possible due to demographics and other societal factors, the British and Canadian authorities did the exact same and French was largely eradicated.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

In France, Mohammed can be third generation and will still not be fully seen as French. In Canada, first generation Mohammed will be seen as Canadian if he doesn't have an accent and plays hockey.

It's exactly the same in France. If you have no accent and participate in French culture, you're seen as French. And on top of it, in France you wouldn't even been called Mohammed to start with (we're one of the few European countries where Mohammed is not the favorite name for Muslim boys). Here if you're a 3rd or 4th generation Muslim, you're more likely to be called Adam, Gabriel, Noah, which are currently the favorite baby boy names for Muslim families. Earlier in the 2000s the favorite boy names for Muslim families were Ryan and Yanis, which were not traditional names. They were rare Arabic names that didn't "sound Arabic" and which the families chose on purpose to look inconspicuous in French society, but now it's even on another stage, because please tell me how you know someone called "Adam" or "Noah" is Muslim? In fact no later than yesterday I was at the dentist, and there was a veiled woman with 3 children in the waiting room, and at some point she called one of her sons and said "Adam" (this is pronounced Adã in French, with nasal vowel, no "m" sound). These kids spoke only French, with no trace of foreign accent whatsoever.

[Acajack]

Canada isn't nearly as picky as it used to be when it comes to who we let in the country. Our standards have dropped. Though not for official immigrants but we have 2-3 times as many students and temporary workers coming in. Standards are low for them.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You make it sound as if it's a public policy. It isn't a policy. It is a natural phenomenon that took place over time. Muslim immigrants weren't ghettoized in the 1970s. In fact the French government had an active policy of eradicating the slums where a part of the Maghreban immigrants were living in the 1960s and early 1970s.

So we'll see how it develops over time in Canada. One point where you're right is that Canada is more selective in terms of the education and skill levels of its immigrants, so this could play a (favorable) role for Canada. But are you suggesting France should imprison and deport all the illegal immigrants that arrive here after crossing the Med, plus severally curtail the rights for Algerians and other Muslim people with low education/skills to move to France? End of family reunification for example?

Also, are you suggesting that, as in Socialist-ruled Denmark, the authorities should check the ethnicity/religion of people and actively prevent the formation of mono-ethnic or mono-religious neighborhoods by denying social housing to certain ethnic and religious minorities in neighborhoods that cross a certainly threshold (say, more than 15% of Muslim people)? This policy would be considered fascist by the French Left and most French media, yet it's official policy in Left-wing Denmark.

You can't accuse these policies of being fascist/too extreme AND at the same time accuse France of "ghettoizing" its immigrants by being too lax.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I can understand if one has an accent. Obviously when I speak French, my horrendous Anglo accent is going to give me away. I can expect those questions then. I don't (and shouldn't) expect questions when I speak English.

Also, FWIW, as I said earlier, I have never gotten these questions in Canada. Not from any Francophone or Québecois I've met. Both at work or personally.

It could also be that for a Québécois a non-white Anglo-Canadian is a pretty banal thing and even expected these days.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's exactly the same in France.

You can say that. It's hard to believe it though.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada isn't nearly as picky as it used to be when it comes to who we let in the country. Our standards have dropped. Though not for official immigrants but we have 2-3 times as many students and temporary workers coming in. Standards are low for them.

Agreed. But that's largely this government. They've already started backtracking. And there's not yet evidence that this policy will endure past this government.

Should be noted that students aren't necessarily a poor source of immigrants. It's the group that is easiest to integrate, arriving in rather formative years. It's mostly our failure at managing their integration that is the problem. Probably moot anyway when this policy gets changed. Also mostly an ROC problem as Québec never really embraced student Immigration.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Agreed. But that's largely this government. They've already started backtracking. And there's not yet evidence that this policy will endure past this government.

Should be noted that students aren't necessarily a poor source of immigrants. It's the group that is easiest to integrate, arriving in rather formative years. It's mostly our failure at managing their integration that is the problem. Probably moot anyway when this policy gets changed. Also mostly an ROC problem as Québec never really embraced student Immigration.

It depends on the students. Too many foreign students admitted today are bogus students .

I'd definitely agree it's not too late to set things right but have less confidence that this government or the next one will actually do it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Europeans at every NATO meeting, within the first 5 minutes of meeting them, while talking to me in uniform with Canada written on my epaulet, after I've delivered a statement on behalf of our government: "So like when did you move to Canada...."

There were some articles about that in the European press. I think you don't understand the underlying logic. People in Europe are curious about other people's origins (we even ask where in the provinces someone is coming from when they come from the provinces). In fact, to go back to that little dentist appointment, my (new) dentist had a Latino name and a foreign accent (which is unusual in France). I wasn't sure if she was Portuguese or something else (not Spanish I thought). So I asked her, and it turned out she was from Rome, Italy. She wasn't offended in the least that I asked, it was very natural, and in fact we started talking about Rome (which I have regrettably not visited since I was 15). She was far friendlier after I asked her and we talked about Rome actually.

From what I understand (if these articles in the European press are correct), the same question in Canada would have been badly received by the dentist, and I probably would not have asked it for fear of offending her or sounding racist. So the reason you're not asked in Canada is probably due to PCness. People are probably as curious as in Europe, but they probably don't dare to ask you, because they are afraid they are going to sound "racist". Maybe the problem comes from Canada and not from Europe. What's wrong with one's origins? And what's wrong with knowing the origins of someone? It's a way to befriend a person, and know a bit more about them. It also shows some interest in the person. Here (at least in France), the biggest insult is to show total lack of interest in someone ("le dédain", which is what the French consider the worst thing that can happen), not to ask them things about them. Besides, in my experience, people are almost always happy to talk about their origins (in Europe I mean).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Québécois have a reputation for being more outward in their cultural curiosity. ROCers are obsessive about minding their own business.

One aspect where, once again, the Québécois are closer to the French than to their fellow Anglophone countrymen it seems.

[kwoldtimer]

Strange conversation. People in Canada ask others about their ancestry all the time, without causing offence. What's avoided is the "where are you from" that assumes a non-Canadian origin. Unless somebody is a closet flaming racist, it's nothing more than curiousity about someone else's "story".

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It could also be that for a Québécois a non-white Anglo-Canadian is a pretty banal thing and even expected these days.

It's not just these days. Keep in mind, I'm in my 40s. I grew up in a Canada that was a lot whiter and far less "PC". Still never got those questions.

I think in Canada, people just assume your accent makes you native. If you speak French with a Québecois accent people will assume you were probably born in Québec regardless of skin colour. Same for English. I don't have accent so my friends and colleagues and strangers will assume I was born here when I speak English. That's true for Quebecers or Ontarians or Acadians.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I mentioned the rules all juges follow in Canada are federal.

The rules the judges follow in France are national. That doesn't change the fact that Left-wing unionized judges (about 1/3 of French judges) are more likely to be lax than other judges. Perhaps you're not a lawyer (I am) so don't realize this, but judges in any jurisdiction have a certain latitude to interpret the law and enforce it. This is particularly true in criminal law, because the judge can decide the extent of the punishment (criminal codes usually only give maximum terms, but the judge is then free to choose any sentence below the maximum term assigned to a particular crime). France had introduced "peines plancher" (minimum terms that the judge could not go below) under Sarkozy, but they have been abolished by the Socialists.

So my question was more: do judges in Anglo-Canada enforce the criminal code more strictly, give harsher prison terms than in Québec? Or is it strictly the same? I have a hard time imagining judges in a purely Anglo-Saxon jurisdiction being very lax. This is not in Anglo-Saxon culture (even Scotland's justice system is harsh, at least compared to us).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Strange conversation. People in Canada ask others about their ancestry all the time, without causing offence. What's avoided is the "where are you from" that assumes a non-Canadian origin. Unless somebody is a closet flaming racist, it's nothing more than curiousity about someone else's "story".

You ask that to people you know and are comfortable with. You don't ask that in a professional setting of a person speaking on behalf of their country. And if you do, the person on the receiving is going to assume you're a closet racist who cares more about their race than their work.

[Acajack]

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...on-lan-dernier

An example from our court system.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So my question was more: do judges in Anglo-Canada enforce the criminal code more strictly, give harsher prison terms than in Québec?

Not likely. If that happened the Supreme Court would have a field day with appeals from the ROC. Can't have different standards of justice across the country just because of language. The rare exception are the Young Offenders Act for minors and a recent effort to find alternatives for Aboriginals to break the cycle. And those aren't regional differences but rather mandated by class (age, and a specific ethnicity).

[Acajack]

Politicians do not get involved in judicial decisions but since judges are political appointees here I do think they are mindful of how the legislator (especially the federal one) wants the system to operate. Especially when the government passes amendments to make stuff like sentencing, bail, parole and release conditions more lax.

I am not a lawyer but I have lots of professional and personal experience with the legal system. And of course I am a political junkie which often involves legal matters.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The rules the judges follow in France are national. That doesn't change the fact that Left-wing unionized judges (about 1/3 of French judges) are more likely to be lax than other judges. Perhaps you're not a lawyer (I am) so don't realize this, but judges in any jurisdiction have a certain latitude to interpret the law and enforce it. This is particularly true in criminal law, because the judge can decide the extent of the punishment (criminal codes usually only give maximum terms, but the judge is then free to choose any sentence below the maximum term assigned to a particular crime). France had introduced "peines plancher" (minimum terms that the judge could not go below) under Sarkozy, but they have been abolished by the Socialists.

So my question was more: do judges in Anglo-Canada enforce the criminal code more strictly, give harsher prison terms than in Québec? Or is it strictly the same? I have a hard time imagining judges in a purely Anglo-Saxon jurisdiction being very lax. This is not in Anglo-Saxon culture (even Scotland's justice system is harsh, at least compared to us).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Nerves or surprise. I remember travelling for the first time and when you get into those how do things work in my country discussions around the hostel table or whatever everyone from Quebec says in Quebec we have X. So In Quebec our mortgage rates are fixed for 5 years. Or in Quebec we have large drug stores that sell food and cosmetics. Conversely while in fact many of these things we compare are provincial everyone else just assumes all of Canada does it their way. So someone from Ontario will say in Canada when we get our drivers license you can't drive at night in the beginning. Or we can only buy alcohol in state owned stores or we have a centralized university application process with one day you get admission etc.

My experience is that it's Ontarians who generally tell everyone Ontario is the default Canada, on everything from milk bags to all Canadians supposedly going wild for the Raptors win.

But sure Quebecers tend to assert that they are different when talking to foreigners.

[Truenorth00]

We also don't have things like politically unionized judges. I think most Canadians would find that idea (judges in a union with a political lean) ridiculous.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You can say that. It's hard to believe it though.

I live here, and you don't. That's the difference. I have no problem mentioning the (annoying) issues with France, as should be obvious by now, but this one is not one. The French by and large are not racist as you could experience it in the USA, or in some Eastern European countries (by far the most racist part of Europe). The French have long been used to immigration, and part of France is Black for more than 3 centuries (West Indies, Réunion), with Black and "colored" politicians in the top of national politics for more than 100 years already.

The French mentality is different. It's not so much your "race", your skin color, or even you religion that matters. What matters to the French is the fact people shouldn't "stick out". This is something I don't really like about France, but here people tend to be quite conservative in how they look at other people. If you dress in a bizarre way. I you have weird hair (like purple-died hair, which I often see in Spain, but which would be badly received in France), if you behave strangely, people won't like it. They look at you from top down ("se faire toiser de haut en bas" is a French expression). That's why people here pay more attention to how they dress than in the rest of Europe.

The French mentality is one of the mistrusting peasant (paysan méfiant), the sort of guy being wary of "strangers" (strangers, any stranger, not foreigners per se). You know these old farmers who looked with suspicion at people coming to their village from somewhere else, and who bit in silver coins with their teeth to make sure the coin was real and had its proper amount of silver.

In today's world, there is still something of it. If you have a good education, speak accent-less French, behave well, have a good job, 99% of French people will treat you as just any other French person, even if you have Maghreban or African origins. On the other hand, if you have a bad banlieue accent, or a Maghreban/African accent, if you wear a veil, or a tradition Muslim male outfit, if you behave weirdly, you smoke weed, you grow your beard the Muslim way, you have low education, bad manners, then yes, many people will be suspicious of you, and will not want to engage with you, hire you, or rent an apartment to you.

There are many perfectly well integrated children of Maghreban immigrants, because they respect the codes. 2 years ago, I was carpooling with a 25 y/o engineer who had Algerian origins (his parents if I remember well). This guy had a first name which was definitely very Arabic (not like the inconspicuous new names chosen by Muslim families), but other than that he looked very European (like many Maghrebans, because the Maghrebans enslaved Southern Europeans for many centuries, so lots of Maghrebans descend from European slaves transported to North Africa), spoke accent-less French, spoke well (not banlieue-French), dressed well (sleek white shirt, etc), had a good job. He would be good son-in-law material even for conservatives French families. In the conversation I asked him specifically whether he ever encountered racism, like people telling him "sorry, I've already found someone to rent the apartment", or night clubs refusing him at the entrance, etc, and he said no, absolutely never. And I think that is not unusual, and you would find it repeated across many people with the same origins.

In the professional world in France, when someone has good education, good manners, good accent, they are perfectly accepted and treated as equal whatever their skin color or name. This is not even an issue.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I live here, and you don't. That's the difference.

Hey. You routinely tell us how things are in Canada. Or in my case, for my own ethnicity and family. So .

So no. I still don't believe you that French attitudes on this, are the same. To ROC or Québec.