ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[Jarod Apperson]

Originally Posted by shivtim

How about some data instead of speculation? Using ARC's most recent data on employment and population, here are the "centers of gravity" for the 20-county metro area.



Note that these are just the centers of employment and population for the metro - so they don't take into account things like hotel rooms, cultural and sporting venues, event attendance, etc.

Thanks for posting. That's interesting.

Another measure of the center might be the area with the densest residential population. On that front, Midtown would be the highest, with the tract along Peachtree between Ponce and 10th having 21,189 residents per square mile.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by scania

There are a few firms already there.

Yes. There are law firms in Buckhead. The major ones are practically all in Midtown. Midtown would have to seriously change its upward trajectory for Buckhead to take those firms away.

[Frankster87]

Originally Posted by scania

I agree that it wouldn't be considered an edge city. But, most of your facts are POINTLESS!!! The world's largest aquarium??? the world's largest trade center??? A 32,000 student University???(most big universities aren't even in a city) Those things have nothing to do with being a city/and or edge city. The point of the guys statement was simply that if you took the center gravity, it would be Buckhead, meaning it was in the middle of Downtown and Perimeter.

Typical. "We don't agree, so your point of view is wrong and/or you obviously didn't read my post well enough."

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by shivtim

How about some data instead of speculation? Using ARC's most recent data on employment and population, here are the "centers of gravity" for the 20-county metro area.



Note that these are just the centers of employment and population for the metro - so they don't take into account things like hotel rooms, cultural and sporting venues, event attendance, etc.

Nicely done. That feels about right. And when you start filtering based on specific employment demographics, different pictures. I forget who'd mentioned in a post, but the corps like Cox do internal research. A rough sample (though likely holds water), but when I worked up there, I'd say easily 70% of the coworkers lived 20+ min north of the perimeter...a small handful in town...and a smaller handful south of town...just ball parking it.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

2010 us census shows that all four tracts have white percentages of 78%, 90%, 84%, and 85%

I must be confusing the Census with the more accurate ARC. The Census is notorious for not being accurate, including massive undercounting of urban populations. It is also extremely dated at this point, especially in a city as dynamic and constantly changing as ours is. If these figures were for Morningside, I could believe them - but no.

I'm not even sure where the individual tracts are over there. All I know is that in real life, on the ground, these figures simply do not reflect reality in the area between Virginia Ave. and Ponce. No way, no how.

[whiterabbit]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Yes. There are law firms in Buckhead. The major ones are practically all in Midtown. Midtown would have to seriously change its upward trajectory for Buckhead to take those firms away.

Correct, if anything more law firms are moving to Midtown.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Yes. There are law firms in Buckhead. The major ones are practically all in Midtown. Midtown would have to seriously change its upward trajectory for Buckhead to take those firms away.

The big law firms' departure from downtown to Midtown is what really made modern day Midtown happen in the latter 1980s. (It was also a huge blow to downtown, but decentralization in American cities had been underway for decades.

There are a number of big firms in downtown and Buckhead, but Midtown clearly has the largest concentration. Given that those are probably long term leases, I wouldn't expect much to change.

[BunkyWay]

Originally Posted by scania

I agree that it wouldn't be considered an edge city. But, most of your facts are POINTLESS!!! The world's largest aquarium??? the world's largest trade center??? A 32,000 student University???(most big universities aren't even in a city) Those things have nothing to do with being a city/and or edge city. The point of the guys statement was simply that if you took the center gravity, it would be Buckhead, meaning it was in the middle of Downtown and Perimeter.

Thank you. I wasn't using "edge city" in the nerdy, urban planner sense of the word, with all the definitions that implies. Obviously, Downtown meets none of those requirements. But it does occupy a location that is now on the edge of a region that is centered on Buckhead. I would argue that Alpharetta is its northern equivalent (again, in terms of location and relation to the nucleus), which would make Perimeter Center and Midtown equivalents.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by shivtim

How about some data instead of speculation? Using ARC's most recent data on employment and population, here are the "centers of gravity" for the 20-county metro area.



Note that these are just the centers of employment and population for the metro - so they don't take into account things like hotel rooms, cultural and sporting venues, event attendance, etc.

what's the caption on the red blob over on the west?

[BunkyWay]

Originally Posted by arjay57

The big law firms' departure from downtown to Midtown is what really made modern day Midtown happen in the latter 1980s. (It was also a huge blow to downtown, but decentralization in American cities had been underway for decades.

There are a number of big firms in downtown and Buckhead, but Midtown clearly has the largest concentration. Given that those are probably long term leases, I wouldn't expect much to change.

As long as King and Spalding remains in Midtown, so will the other white shoe firms. If K & S decides Buckhead is where it wants to be, a lot of firms will follow its lead.

[BunkyWay]

Originally Posted by shivtim

How about some data instead of speculation? Using ARC's most recent data on employment and population, here are the "centers of gravity" for the 20-county metro area.



Note that these are just the centers of employment and population for the metro - so they don't take into account things like hotel rooms, cultural and sporting venues, event attendance, etc.

I believe this map makes me correct.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by cabasse

what's the caption on the red blob over on the west?

"Fltn Ind" for Fulton Industrial.

Originally Posted by BunkyWay

I believe this map makes me correct.

Buckhead-ish is indeed close to the employment and population center of the metro. So by those two metrics, yep. But your "edge cities" comment is still bizarre.


Another relevant document for discussion:
http://www.reconnectingamerica.org/assets/Uploads/Atlanta-Regional-Density.pdf
Downtown has the most workers and the highest employment density by a long shot. Five times as dense as Cobb/Cumberland, and more workers than Buckhead/Dunwoody/Sandy Springs combined.

A more fair comparison might be this:
http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%20Li...Transportation/RS_April_2012_Workers.pdf
Which compares similarly-sized employment centers (table 2 - all are between 17429 acres and 18179 acres). Downtown barely edges out midtown as the top employment center. Midtown barely edges out downtown as the highest residential population within an employment center. No other area comes close to downtown and midtown in terms of jobs or residents, with the possible exception of the Emory/CDC area, which has 50,000 jobs.

Another interesting thing to look at is the ratio of jobs to residents. This helps to indicate areas where people are commuting to. The airport wins, followed by midtown and downtown.

[scania]

Originally Posted by clexmond

Ok, why don't you share with the group what it is that makes a city.

LOL...The definition of a city is what makes it a city. You can look up that definition on your own time. East Point, Marietta, and Duluth are all cities. If The University of Michigan was to relocate from Ann Arbor to Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor will still be a city. Having the things the guy mention doesn't make Atlanta a city. Atlanta was a city long before any of those things to came Downtown Atlanta.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by scania

LOL...The definition of a city is what makes it a city. You can look up that definition on your own time. East Point, Marietta, and Duluth are all cities. If The University of Michigan was to relocate from Ann Arbor to Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor will still be a city. Having the things the guy mention doesn't make Atlanta a city. Atlanta was a city long before any of those things to came Downtown Atlanta.

What's your point? Nobody was ever arguing that Atlanta wasn't a city. We were arguing that it certainly isn't an "edge city." Having corporate headquarters, government headquarters, cultural venues, educational venues, transit and sporting venues in a concentrated area lends credence to downtown Atlanta being by some measures the "center" of the metro.
Using your example, would anyone even have heard of Ann Arbor if the University wasn't there? Certainly if people were claiming that downtown Ann Arbor is the center of the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti MSA, their very first argument would be that the bulk of UofM is located in downtown Ann Arbor.

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Downtown Atlanta, the densest job center in the Southeast, with 12,000 hotel rooms, the nation's 5th busiest convention center, a 32,000 student University, the 5th largest public hospital in the country, the capital building and offices for the entire state, city hall, headquarters of Sun Trust, Georgia Pacific, and Southern Company, the world's largest aquarium, Georgia's largest domed stadium, the nations third busiest arena, an NFL team, an NBA team, 27,000 residents, one of the world's largest wholesale trade centers, and the busiest transit station in the entire Southeast is an "edge city." Got it.

[RudyJK]

3 pages on what an edge city is or isn't and where lawyers have offices!!

And Simms and I were ridiculed for having a half-page discussion on what part of town designers do business?

OK.

[scania]

Originally Posted by shivtim

What's your point? Nobody was ever arguing that Atlanta wasn't a city. We were arguing that it certainly isn't an "edge city." Having corporate headquarters, government headquarters, cultural venues, educational venues, transit and sporting venues in a concentrated area lends credence to downtown Atlanta being by some measures the "center" of the metro.
Using your example, would anyone even have heard of Ann Arbor if the University wasn't there? Certainly if people were claiming that downtown Ann Arbor is the center of the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti MSA, their very first argument would be that the bulk of UofM is located in downtown Ann Arbor.

No sense in going back and forth if you don't understand my point by now.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by RudyJK

3 pages on what an edge city is or isn't and where lawyers have offices!!

And Simms and I were ridiculed for having a half-page discussion on what part of town designers do business?

OK.

This whole thread is so far off topic it doesn't even matter anymore. I tried for a while to drown out the chatter with lots of construction updates, and it didn't work. So I threw in the towel. A couple people came over here from city-data, Simms and Scania have been up to their usual antics, and it's been downhill ever since.

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by RudyJK

3 pages on what an edge city is or isn't and where lawyers have offices!!

And Simms and I were ridiculed for having a half-page discussion on what part of town designers do business?

OK.

Tell me about it. I got bitched at for two posts about GSU football.

[scania]

Originally Posted by shivtim

This whole thread is so far off topic it doesn't even matter anymore. I tried for a while to drown out the chatter with lots of construction updates, and it didn't work. So I threw in the towel. A couple people came over here from city-data, Simms and Scania have been up to their usual antics, and it's been downhill ever since.

Seriously dude????
This is a SKYSCRAPER forum...and you show updates about a freaking cycle lane. Ha