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  #7921  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2015, 3:04 AM
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New Years 2014 just RTD and reality

What did I learn about light rail, commuter rail, and, heavy rail in 2014?

Was what I learned technological, or cultural? Were the lessons learned related to what could have been done versus what should have done?

I guess most lessons that I learned relate to the destruction of more of my innocence concerning human nature, rather than to any technological answers to:

1. Planning good rail transportation systems is largely impossible in the US, based upon what has been built in the US for the last twenty years. The routing is cast in concrete long before public input is ever considered. Public input during the system and route layout phase is both largely ignored and after the fact.

Consequently, routing generally is too often is the result of self-serving big monied property interests, as well as regulatory requirements that aid huge contractors and promote using too much concrete and steel when building bridges, overpasses (drastically increases cost per mile), etc. While a vocal middle class centric community might affect station placement, community input seldom influences track layout.

2. The Denver system could have been world class. The Denver system should have been world class, because almost perfect track right-of-way was available prior to the build out phases through the urban core. The fact that did not (or will not) occur, is a function of the combination of financial genius and profound ignorance concerning just about everything else-too often present within the upper class.

Power succeeds over public need until times when the unwashed masses rise up and scare the ruling class into fixing a problem. In Denver, not enough of the unwashed masses rose up early enough during the system design phase to steer private money towards simultaneously making development both profitable and more public serving. Basically, from 1998 on, the potential for a world class urban rail system in metro Denver was lost.*

Denver’s steel rail system will not significantly affect metro level transportation patterns, other than result in more stick wall 4 to 6 story apartment buildings near transit stations (as the crow flies, not foot or bike distance) and non-pedestrian friendly office/retail space in station areas (again as the crow flies). Major transportation mode percentages will not change significantly except in localized areas.

3. The RTD rail system is not interested in making any rail improvements. Rather they are concerned with completing the system as designed. While RTD's determination is admirable, not remedying simple alignment problems is far cheaper before, rather than, after, neighboring lots are developed. Mistakes are largely "baked in" and have been so for 16 years.

4. Those interested in bringing new transit systems into being or making existing transit systems more effective, should not work in metro Denver except to go to "finishing" school (1 to 2 years) before leaving for somewhere else. Take the lessons about what not to do and go to cities where real potential for world class rail transit still exists and try not to repeat the same mistakes. Understand that despite the good intent of so many planners, the efforts of so many thinkers, and, the millions of hours of "study" the result likely will be mediocre, if not "banal."

Cities with:

Good rail right-of way connections through downtown (preserve “higher speed” through connections at all costs: through downtown right-of-way is worth hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, per mile)
Good right of ways radiating from downtown along existing or mothballed rail line routes.
Right of way opportunities along divided highway and/or freeway medians.
Possible opportunities for circular loops around downtowns.

An upper class more willing to plan for a less auto centric society (look at having 20 to 25% of transportation needs HAVING to be provided via public transportation…..


Wizened Variations

How to get something DONE and done right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__ysTCD1wo


____________________________________________________________________________
*same seat travel through the urban core between suburbs; stations with passing tracks (for a two track main line, a minimum of 3, preferably 4 tracks at passing stations; platform to platform transfers, passenger car floor level platforms, maximizing turn radii for curves that cannot be avoided, shortest possible distance between origination and destination points, higher speed crossover switches, lowest possible line gradient, and preferentially using parallel roads to reduce the number of road level crossings. If you want to learn 95% of how good passenger steel rail, monorail, high speed rail and even limited access expressways can be, study Japan's rail, bus, and, turnpikes. Despite my sounding like a broken record, go there yourself for two weeks for the sole purpose of studying Japanese trains. You will learn more about good rail design during these two weeks than you would learn from the majority of master's level transportation programs in the US.
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  #7922  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2015, 3:50 AM
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While I don't always agree with you 100% of the time, it's great to see you again, Wizened. I think your perspective really adds a lot to these forums.
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  #7923  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2015, 4:15 PM
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Sweet, Wizened isn't dead.
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  #7924  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2015, 7:01 PM
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Sweet, Wizened isn't dead.
Welcome back, Wizened.
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  #7925  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2015, 4:21 AM
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Amtrak's auto train is too expensive. It's cheaper to drive if you have kids, or cheaper to fly and rent a car if you're alone. I live in DC and my sister's family lives in suburban Orlando (the auto train's exact route, if you don't know), but we can never make the auto train pencil out because it doesn't work financially. As far as I can figure out, the only market for the auto train is affluent snowbirds. Old northeasterners who spend 6 months in Florida each year, but can't handle the 15 hour drive.

If it were cheaper, it'd be great.
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  #7926  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2015, 6:36 PM
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On the topic of intercity buses, apparently this exists:

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  #7927  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2015, 5:34 AM
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^^^^
I know it must be annoying when SLC people jump in on your thread, but since you mention the Salt Lake Express, I'm going to jump in anyway.
The first time I used the express I had my serious doubts. You wait on a street corner or a gas station without any sort of sign or confirmation that they're coming, and they are usually a little late. Then a bus shows up - or sometimes just a 12 person van - and off you go. I've been converted. Not that it is ever my first choice in travel options... It's too slow and too expensive to use regularly, and I'll only use it when I travel alone (2 tickets is just too expensive vs a car), but I am very glad that such an option exists.

Really, I only wish they would use the regular bus station in places like Salt Lake City, instead of making you walk a block or two (big deal in SLC) with all your bags to their unmarked 'bus stop' on some random underused street corner... But I guess if they did use the Intermodal Hubs the price would be much higher. You can't get everything you want..
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  #7928  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2015, 8:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatman View Post
^^^^
I know it must be annoying when SLC people jump in on your thread, but since you mention the Salt Lake Express, I'm going to jump in anyway.
The first time I used the express I had my serious doubts. You wait on a street corner or a gas station without any sort of sign or confirmation that they're coming, and they are usually a little late. Then a bus shows up - or sometimes just a 12 person van - and off you go. I've been converted. Not that it is ever my first choice in travel options... It's too slow and too expensive to use regularly, and I'll only use it when I travel alone (2 tickets is just too expensive vs a car), but I am very glad that such an option exists.

Really, I only wish they would use the regular bus station in places like Salt Lake City, instead of making you walk a block or two (big deal in SLC) with all your bags to their unmarked 'bus stop' on some random underused street corner... But I guess if they did use the Intermodal Hubs the price would be much higher. You can't get everything you want..
not annoying.

thank you for your insight
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  #7929  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2015, 6:18 PM
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BUSTANG!
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/01/06/meet-bustang-colorados-state-owned-bus-service/

Quote:
....
Along the Interstate 70 mountain corridor, Bustang will offer one round trip during weekdays between Glenwood Springs and Denver’s Union Station. On Interstate 25, from Colorado Springs to Union Station, it will make six round trips daily, including one off-peak, and five round trips to Fort Collins.
....
CDOT said the service will include 13 coaches on each route. Each will seat 50 passengers.

The service will stop at existing park-and-ride locations, and prices are determined by the length of the trip. A one-way trip to Glenwood Springs, for instance, will cost $28. One way to Fort Collins is $10.

According to CDOT’s website, the Bustang is “no ordinary bus.” It will offer WiFi, bathrooms, bike racks, outlets and reclining seats, among other amenities.
oh, and this is sure a different rhetoric from CDOT than in the past
Quote:
“CDOT is more than just building and maintaining our roads,” its executive director, Don Hunt, said in a news release. “We are committed to helping people think differently about how they travel and what Coloradans tell us they are looking for is a different type of ride. Bustang will provide that choice.”


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  #7930  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2015, 7:29 PM
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BUSTANG...freakin love it
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  #7931  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2015, 8:13 PM
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Wizened... Happy New year to you Sir.

Hatman... I agree with Scottk that your input is additive. Wish I had the time and gumption to spend (more) time on your sites.

EngiNerd... Nice post. That's Good News.


One never knows who may be lurking on these threads but being in one of those moods....

I think it is fair to say that the blue hue that overcame Colorado over the last decade along with our friends in Washington has had a positive and presumably lasting impact on transit. It's interesting how the apposition when forced to go along often recognizes the benefits of things. Our friends in Utah would be Exhibit 'A.'

I have to giggle a little at the thought of the "right" still wanting to make an issue aver the Keystone XL Pipeline with the world currently awash in crude oil. If my friends on the right are serious about jobs then they should step up, raise the fuel tax and start building necessary roads, bridges and moar transit. I predicted as much would happen last year and I'm still optimistic this will happen in the spring.

Should more money start flowing perhaps RTD and/or Denver could find a way to fund a streetcar named Colfax Desire out to Colorado Blvd.

My nervousness would be that Congress doesn't look so favorably on transit. With the cost of gas down one could see the potential for a significant "mood swing." I could easily see where the fuel tax increase would be restricted to non-transit stuff. At least this year there's good reason to hope for a compromise solution.
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  #7932  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2015, 9:31 PM
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I have to giggle a little at the thought of the "right" still wanting to make an issue aver the Keystone XL Pipeline with the world currently awash in crude oil. If my friends on the right are serious about jobs then they should step up, raise the fuel tax and start building necessary roads, bridges and moar transit. I predicted as much would happen last year and I'm still optimistic this will happen in the spring.
The XL pipeline is a bipartisan issue that has support from both Democrats and Republicans. The last time the pipeline came to a vote was around a month ago when, Mary Landriue, the former democratic senator from Louisiana brought it to a vote. She was the chairman of the Senate energy committee and due to political reasons wanted/needed XL to pass. Additionally, XL is a four phase project. What people do not already get is that pages one through three are already built. The pipeline already connects Alberta to Louisiana. All phase four does is increase the capacity of the pipeline between Alberta and Nebraska. Lastly, while gas prices are currently low, there is no way for you to say with any certainty, what the price of gas will be when XL phase four is finished (that is unless you somehow are able to predict what OPEC, Saudi Arabia, and Chevron's actions over the next several years will be).

Additionally, if you want to raise more money for transportation, raising the fuel tax is not the way to do it. Because of regulations implemented by the "blue hue" the fuel economy standards for automotive manufactures is constantly rising. As such, as fuel standards become more strict, there will be a corresponding marginal decrease in the amount of fuel used by consumers and hence a reduction in the revenue brought in by the fuel tax. Additionally, electric cars do not have to pay the fuel tax although they deteriorate infrastructure and congest roads in the same was as traditional vehicles. Therefore, if you really want more money for roads, the answer here is not to raise the state or federal fuel tax. Raising it, will cost a lot of political capitol and will only provide temporary benefits. Lastly, the group of people who own the most fuel inefficient cars are the lower middle class. Therefore any increase in the fuel tax will have the greatest impact lower middle class because of the group's inability to spend money on new more fuel efficient cars.

The irony here is that in your argument about why republicans should adopt a more liberal stance towards infrastructure financing, you are actually advocating for a system that will tax with poor while leaving the rich relatively unscathed.
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  #7933  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2015, 9:37 PM
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The XL pipeline is a bipartisan issue that has support from both Democrats and Republicans. The last time the pipeline came to a vote was around a month ago when, Mary Landriue, the former democratic senator from Louisiana brought it to a vote. She was the chairman of the Senate energy committee and due to political reasons wanted/needed XL to pass. Additionally, XL is a four phase project. What people do not already get is that pages one through three are already built. The pipeline already connects Alberta to Louisiana. All phase four does is increase the capacity of the pipeline between Alberta and Nebraska. Lastly, while gas prices are currently low, there is no way for you to say with any certainty, what the price of gas will be when XL phase four is finished (that is unless you somehow are able to predict what OPEC, Saudi Arabia, and Chevron's actions over the next several years will be).
Balderdash. Keystone XL is the single greatest infrastructure project in the history of the United States and will create 400,000 new jobs and produce elventy-billionty dollars in tax revenue. It will save the US!

USA! USA! USA!

Quote:
The irony here is that in your argument about why republicans should adopt a more liberal stance towards infrastructure financing, you are actually advocating for a system that will tax with poor while leaving the rich relatively unscathed.
Isn't that the purpose of taxation? Class stagnation and decreasing social mobility?
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  #7934  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2015, 11:39 PM
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Denver... I'm impressed. You know the political arguments; all of them and can articulate them well. I have no interest in going point by point even if this was an appropriate place, but a few points:

I understand Mary Landriue's situation. What state was she from and what was her motivation? Claims it is bipartisan is a stretch but points can be made. Fine.

The southern end of the pipeline was completed and started up about this time a year ago. Depending on your source it can carry up to 800,000+ bpd from Cushing to Port Arthur. There's been concern of a growing glut in the Gulf and some have looked at loading crude onto a vessel and running it through the Panama Canal and over to California. Go figure. Maybe it's just easier to continue to ship at least crude from the Bakkens by rail?

The electric car argument is one of my favs. No one says you need to be fond of them but thinking taxing them will solve our funding needs... Too funny. I also get a big kick out of the "lower middle" class argument. I've never accused the right of not having very good propaganda. Indeed nobody does it better. I'm sure that some do drive older cheap gas hogs but they also drive older Honda's, Toyota's etc. etc. They might even have a salvage title (or should have).

Your blue hue argument, though true, is beside the point. Take utilities for example. A part of utilities raising rates is to cover their cost in the face of more efficient practices. They may need to get approval but they don't face all the silliness of politics. Despite more fuel efficient cars AND cost of construction inflation, gas taxes haven't been raised since since 1993. It's the height of stupidity.

Understand though that during the Bush years Congress handed out "earmarks" for transportation projects like they were Halloween candy. They just added it to the General Fund ie. deficits. You want to go back to just doing that? Fine.

TBH, I don't give a flip HOW they raise more money; but so far there's been no more than fanciful ideas and fancy footwork. At least in the near term raising the fuel taxes is the most logical and simplest solution. Let somebody do what's needed for God's sake.
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  #7935  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 12:41 AM
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none of this matters...seriously...anybody know how many miles of pipelines already criss-cross the US?

2,505,000 miles - EXISTING and in use...

what's the impact of a brand new, modern, technologically advanced 2,000 mile pipeline? None..possibly even better for the environment as it takes pressure off of existing, older lines being used in lieu of keystone. Maybe that's why the EPA endorsed it?

unfortunately..it's just an easy target and has a "name"...politics - give them something to rally around and you win the hearts, instead of their heads.

Last edited by bcp; Jan 9, 2015 at 12:51 AM.
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  #7936  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 1:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bcp View Post

unfortunately..it's just an easy target and has a "name"...politics - give them something to rally around and you win the hearts, instead of their heads.
Guns, Gays, God, Benghazi, Keystone, SQUIRREL!
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  #7937  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 1:41 AM
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Guns, Gays, God, Benghazi, Keystone, SQUIRREL!
Bunt you may know this. Can the Colorado legislature raise the state gas tax without running into issue with tabor?
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  #7938  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 1:58 AM
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For those of you in need of a good laugh tonight: http://reason.org/files/reducing_congestion_denver.pdf
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  #7939  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 2:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Balderdash. Keystone XL is the single greatest infrastructure project in the history of the United States and will create 400,000 new jobs and produce elventy-billionty dollars in tax revenue. It will save the US!

USA! USA! USA!
Sarcasm aside, it actually is a fairly important infrastructure project. Especially for Colorado and the Denver Basin. Many of the shale plays consist of condensate that we don't have the capacity to refine because of logistics. The Niobrara is exactly that, as all the oil produced is high gravity that is discounted significantly. The current debate about the U.S. exporting oil is precisely about Colorado oil. The heavy Canadian oil will be a great blend for future condensate production growth. Im not trying to debate the politics, but I suspect the export infrastructure and job base will be great. The DJ Basin can use any advantage available because the economics are not as good as other basins. When prices come back, the free money that has been thrown at the industry will not follow to the extent it had before. This means the job growth will slow down when the recovery begins in what I suspect will be in 12-18 months? Anyway, this project will have a direct influence on the colorado economy. I certainly would like to see as much healthy growth come into the metro as possible.

I might add that pipelines are much more efficient and safer than trains. A few dollars barrel makes a big difference at these prices.
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  #7940  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2015, 3:41 AM
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For those of you in need of a good laugh tonight: http://reason.org/files/reducing_congestion_denver.pdf
Looks like someone was a little light headed when they drew the maps in that rather dry report (that I did not read). Especially 285/Hampden which they drew through the middle of the Kennedy Golf Course. Of course, that would probably be a much better use for that land anyway:-)
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