Winnipeg Jets

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I caught a period of a Moose game recently and the arena looked mostly empty. Wonder how much longer the team stays there if they can't really get crowds out...most of the purpose of having a farm team nearby is for convenience of calling players up and down but having them play in an empty building isn't ideal either.

When the Moose came here, it was at the tail end of the period when the Jets were a tough ticket. So they drew fairly well, it was the place to go if you didn't feel like forking out for Jets tickets. I get the impression that as with the Jets, TNSE got a little lazy with the Moose, because their tickets were at some of the highest price points in the AHL but they were still drawing quite well.

Things have changed and you can now often buy Jets tickets for under face value on the secondary market. I think that has seriously cut into the Moose market. For example, the Jets and Blues are playing tonight... I can find secondary market tickets for CAD$33 a pop all in. This is basically the same price as a 200-level ticket for a Moose game. Yeah, the Jets tickets are nosebleeds, but there is no question that the entertainment value at the Jets game will be higher if for no other reason than because I'll know all of the players on the home team and a good chunk of the visitors.

The Moose have settled into a pattern where weekend games and special promo events often draw reasonably well by AHL standards, but standard weeknight games don't do well at all. That is not uncommon among minor league/junior teams playing in NHL cities.

For what it's worth, there are several AHL teams that draw worse than the Moose. The SJ Barracuda in particular plays in front of a practically empty arena some nights. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be better off putting the team somewhere else, but Sharks ownership doesn't seem to mind. Maybe the Jets are the same way. From what I've seen with the new AHL team in Calgary, I get the impression that the Flames are not worried about attendance at all from the weak marketing effort they've put into the Wranglers.

I make it to maybe a couple of Moose games a season. They're OK, but I find them fairly pricy for what you get. If TNSE wanted to bump up the attendance numbers in a hurry I'd say the easiest way to do that would be to cut the ticket prices in half to better reflect their entertainment value. But I suspect that won't happen... probably a lot more money to be made by selling at the current high prices, and getting Jets sponsors to buy Moose ticket packages that go unused for the most part, even if that means fewer people in the stands. The bottom line, I suppose, is that there isn't a straight-line correlation between attendance and profitability... attendance probably matters less to the TNSE bean-counters and executives than we might think.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

When the Moose came here, it was at the tail end of the period when the Jets were a tough ticket. So they drew fairly well, it was the place to go if you didn't feel like forking out for Jets tickets. I get the impression that as with the Jets, TNSE got a little lazy with the Moose, because their tickets were at some of the highest price points in the AHL but they were still drawing quite well.

I went to a Marlies game last week and the tickets were given away for free online. Ended up checking and they retailed for $65/ea.

Originally Posted by esquire

Things have changed and you can now often buy Jets tickets for under face value on the secondary market. I think that has seriously cut into the Moose market. For example, the Jets and Blues are playing tonight... I can find secondary market tickets for CAD$33 a pop all in. This is basically the same price as a 200-level ticket for a Moose game. Yeah, the Jets tickets are nosebleeds, but there is no question that the entertainment value at the Jets game will be higher if for no other reason than because I'll know all of the players on the home team and a good chunk of the visitors.

Sounds a lot like what Senators tickets are like in Ottawa, depending on the opponent. Able to go to many Senators games with $20 (or less) tickets in the nosebleeds.

Originally Posted by esquire

For what it's worth, there are several AHL teams that draw worse than the Moose. The SJ Barracuda in particular plays in front of a practically empty arena some nights. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be better off putting the team somewhere else, but Sharks ownership doesn't seem to mind. Maybe the Jets are the same way. From what I've seen with the new AHL team in Calgary, I get the impression that the Flames are not worried about attendance at all from the weak marketing effort they've put into the Wranglers.

I make it to maybe a couple of Moose games a season. They're OK, but I find them fairly pricy for what you get. If TNSE wanted to bump up the attendance numbers in a hurry I'd say the easiest way to do that would be to cut the ticket prices in half to better reflect their entertainment value. But I suspect that won't happen... probably a lot more money to be made by selling at the current high prices, and getting Jets sponsors to buy Moose ticket packages that go unused for the most part, even if that means fewer people in the stands. The bottom line, I suppose, is that there isn't a straight-line correlation between attendance and profitability... attendance probably matters less to the TNSE bean-counters and executives than we might think.

I think it's interesting to see how the AHL has transitioned in the past 30 years. I grew up in NB and had the Saint John Flames as the hometown team and that was definitely viewed as professional level and high-level hockey. They were in a lot of markets where they were top-billing and the big show in town.

Fast-forward to today and it seems like NHL-owned teams are content to play as literal farm teams in the same-or-near markets for the sake of convenience rather than being separate entities. Teams like Hershey and Rochester still exist but the number of legacy, independent AHL teams are few and far between. Likewise, the teams have gone from being older and tougher to being younger and more skilled, looking more like U25 teams some nights as opposed to fully professional sides.

I guess in the Jets' case there really isn't anywhere convenient to slot them that is also nearby. I know Thunder Bay always gets paraded around as a suggestion but that feels like a pipedream more than anything else. I think an AHL team in Saskatchewan would be intriguing but don't really have a gauge on how well one would do vis-a-vis the current WHL teams in their markets.

It's an aside but i'm always impressed how well Chicago and Rockford do considering they're both in Blackhawks territory. Impressive stuff in that region.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I think it's interesting to see how the AHL has transitioned in the past 30 years. I grew up in NB and had the Saint John Flames as the hometown team and that was definitely viewed as professional level and high-level hockey. They were in a lot of markets where they were top-billing and the big show in town.

Fast-forward to today and it seems like NHL-owned teams are content to play as literal farm teams in the same-or-near markets for the sake of convenience rather than being separate entities. Teams like Hershey and Rochester still exist but the number of legacy, independent AHL teams are few and far between. Likewise, the teams have gone from being older and tougher to being younger and more skilled, looking more like U25 teams some nights as opposed to fully professional sides.

I guess in the Jets' case there really isn't anywhere convenient to slot them that is also nearby. I know Thunder Bay always gets paraded around as a suggestion but that feels like a pipedream more than anything else. I think an AHL team in Saskatchewan would be intriguing but don't really have a gauge on how well one would do vis-a-vis the current WHL teams in their markets.

It's an aside but i'm always impressed how well Chicago and Rockford do considering they're both in Blackhawks territory. Impressive stuff in that region.

In some respects I think the NHL is following the NBA's lead... it's not hard to imagine something with the cachet of the LA Lakers doing well as a standalone G-league team in another city. Instead they have them playing right in the LA metro, in a glorified high school gym:


source:gametime.co

I guess someone has done the math and has determined that there is more value in keeping the team closer to home and drawing less than in putting the club somewhere else. Let's not forget that the Moose are way cheaper to operate when they play in Winnipeg... there is no extra cost for the arena since they already own it. Same with the training facility. TNSE probably runs the business ops with their existing Jets staff. You move to Thunder Bay and suddenly you need to pay for a lot of those things.

There were rumors about a possible AHL franchise in Sask but that is tough, the WHL clubs are really embedded in there. It would be hard to pull it off without harming real community institutions like the Pats or the Blades.

TNSE seems reasonably committed to keeping the Moose in Winnipeg and I suspect what they'll do is what they're doing with the Jets... marketing the team a little more aggressively, discounting tickets a bit and doing what they have to do to get a little more of the public's attention. But at the end of the day I think they are willing to accept playing some games in front of 1,200 fans.

Personally, while I readily admit that the Moose play a very high level of hockey, I do find their games a bit on the dull side. I am willing to go once in a while if I get a discount, but I won't pay full price. I know that they do have a few hardcore fans, but I don't know anyone who attends more than a couple of games a year... in my cohort, people mainly go when their kids' hockey teams have an outing there.

[CoryB]

For any of the AHL teams co-locating with their NHL parent and having the same owners it comes down to the overall revenue and costs of the combined operations.

You may take a hit on revenue from attendance, merch, etc but considering the AHL team uses otherwise dead hours at the NHL training facility (IcePlex) and has games on dark nights in the main arena those incremental costs are normally less than standing up a second spectator facility in another city even if you assume it also doubles as the training facility for the AHL team. And that is without the added travel costs of moving players between the clubs.

Where the real risk is at currently for the Jets/Moose is as the Jets attendance starts to drop it is going to start tanking the other revenue streams too.

In terms of alternate Moose locations, I think Faro may have the right mix of population size and proximity. The challenge is being halfway between the Jets and the Wild they may lean more to the wild side of things.

[esquire]

^ Fargo seems like the kind of place where the AHL could work, but again, they are a junior hockey town with a well-established USHL team. For all we know, they may have a monopoly on the Scheels Arena.

The tricky thing with this part of the world is that there aren't many sizable population centres that aren't spoken for by some longstanding high profile hockey team, whether it's major junior, college or minor pro. In some ways Thunder Bay is the exception (too far west for the OHL, too far east for the WHL), but they don't have a modern rink and seemingly no path to getting one built.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Fargo seems like the kind of place where the AHL could work, but again, they are a junior hockey town with a well-established USHL team. For all we know, they may have a monopoly on the Scheels Arena.

The tricky thing with this part of the world is that there aren't many sizable population centres that aren't spoken for by some longstanding high profile hockey team, whether it's major junior, college or minor pro. In some ways Thunder Bay is the exception (too far west for the OHL, too far east for the WHL), but they don't have a modern rink and seemingly no path to getting one built.

Speaking of Thunder Bay, whatever happened to the guy from there who used to post in the Winnipeg threads for years and years!?

[bomberjet]

Vid.

Last activity oct. 31, 2021.

[Gm0ney]

COVID really seemed to knock some wind out of arena attendance. The Moose were averaging around 5000 per game pre-pandemic - and those were some brutal teams. Of course, from the opening of the MTS Centre to the return of the Jets, they were averaging over 8000 per game, but 5000 was still pretty good after the Moose 2.0 came back.

They've got a really good team this year with some exciting young players like Lambert, Lucius and Heinola. Just seems to be little appetite for it. We'll see how it goes once they start playing some weekend home games...

[trueviking]

Covid has killed everything that involves leaving your house....movies, restaurants, shopping, arts, music, recreational sports, spectator sports...anything work related...it's all hurting....my beer league slow pitch and hockey leagues are both down by half in number of teams.

we all got deeply entrenched on our living room couches during covid and most people appear content to stay there.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by thurmas

If the Ice can get a new 4500 seat arena built in South Winnipeg would probably be a much better venue not only for them but also the moose. However 3 teams of nhl ahl and whl in this market is just too much especially with justinflation only so much for the entertainment dollar to go round.

you didn't really say justinflation did you?

As unlikely as it is that anyone is going to build a second arena in Winnipeg, even if by some miracle that did happen, the Moose are not moving to any venue where True North will pay rent to another owner....

[esquire]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Covid has killed everything that involves leaving your house....movies, restaurants, shopping, arts, music, recreational sports, spectator sports...anything work related...it's all hurting....my beer league slow pitch and hockey leagues are both down by half in number of teams.

we all got deeply entrenched on our living room couches during covid and most people appear content to stay there.

The church I attend is a small, old institution in a central neighbourhood, it doesn't cost much to run, and it was basically break even before covid. But enough of the congregation has decided to stay home, watch livestream services and not throw a few bucks into the collection plate to the point where the church is now running at a deficit. The church can withstand a few years of this, but at some point there will be a real crunch. And some hard decisions will have to be made. It is possible that in the not too distant future, the church could be shuttered.

This is one example, but I think a lot of local legacy community institutions are going to be in a similar position as a result of the behaviour vike describes. Maybe no single community centre, legion hall, church, slo-pitch league, minor-pro hockey team or whatever is that important and vital on its own, but once you start losing many of them, it will definitely cause the urban fabric to start fraying.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Covid has killed everything that involves leaving your house....movies, restaurants, shopping, arts, music, recreational sports, spectator sports...anything work related...it's all hurting....my beer league slow pitch and hockey leagues are both down by half in number of teams.

we all got deeply entrenched on our living room couches during covid and most people appear content to stay there.

I have to say my son plays AA hockey and most of his games are full of fans....same goes with AAA. The AAA tryouts were standing room only at Gateway. In my eyes it seems like the pent up factor of having to stay home for 2 years has bolstered the attendance at these events.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by Biff

I have to say my son plays AA hockey and most of his games are full of fans....same goes with AAA. The AAA tryouts were standing room only at Gateway. In my eyes it seems like the pent up factor of having to stay home for 2 years has bolstered the attendance at these events.

that's mostly parents & grandparents which is fantastic to see! my son team is also seeing decent attendance, nice to have no capacity restrictions

one of my greatest memories of crowds was my kid 2019 Peewee AA city finals @ Gateway, game 5 on a Friday night. never seen a rink so packed. teenagers surrounded the entire glass and parents, grandparents and friends packed the stands. unreal environment for 12 yr olds.

and Yes his team did win (back to back city champs baby)!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Gm0ney

COVID really seemed to knock some wind out of arena attendance. The Moose were averaging around 5000 per game pre-pandemic - and those were some brutal teams. Of course, from the opening of the MTS Centre to the return of the Jets, they were averaging over 8000 per game, but 5000 was still pretty good after the Moose 2.0 came back.

I was doing some analysis and found that the Goldeyes were in a similar situation. I cross-referenced with the Vancouver Canadians and found that their crowds have been steadily increasing over the past decade whilst the Goldeyes have declined, essentially swapping places crowd-size wise.

Anything local to cause this or is this another case of the Jets arriving and sucking the air out of potential sales?

[thurmas]

Locally I have noticed baseball participation plummet and cricket participation skyrocket in the last 5 years locally.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I was doing some analysis and found that the Goldeyes were in a similar situation. I cross-referenced with the Vancouver Canadians and found that their crowds have been steadily increasing over the past decade whilst the Goldeyes have declined, essentially swapping places crowd-size wise.

Anything local to cause this or is this another case of the Jets arriving and sucking the air out of potential sales?

I have an acquaintance who works for the Goldeyes. I don't press him for too many details but he did divulge that the return of the Jets hurt them pretty badly. A lot of their season ticket and corporate sponsorship accounts disappeared.

That's probably the biggest factor, but there are others that I can think of:

-more crowded market generally, when the Goldeyes came on the scene all there was at the time were the Jets (in a much less expensive NHL), the Bombers and a minor league basketball team on its deathbed. Today there is the Jets (who soak up a lot more money than they did in the 90s) and Bombers, but also the Moose, the ICE and Valour FC. Televised sports are probably a bigger source of competition too.

-baseball was a huge novelty when it came back after a long absence, and that novelty has worn off over time, same with the new stadium which had to be a factor in the days when the Goldeyes were drawing well. It was the first new pro sports facility built in Winnipeg in almost 50 years so it was a big part of the draw.

-I think baseball has faded a bit in popularity generally, it was huge with boomers and while it's still popular, it's not what it once was... young people are more likely to be into basketball or soccer now. Obviously it ebbs and flows, when there is something exciting in MLB it can rev up the local fanbase and whet their appetite, but that is more on a short-term basis.

-Goldeyes tickets are undeniably expensive for what it is... it's low level minor league baseball, but gameday tickets are roughly $25 a pop, plus the usual fees, etc. Having to spend over $100 just to get my family in the door is not an appealing prospect. I'm sure that keeps a lot of people away, or at least keeps them from coming on a regular basis.

-Not everyone will agree, but I find the ownership factor a huge turnoff and I have a hard time getting behind something owned by Sam Katz that is a major source of his wealth.

That said, I don't think the Goldeyes are under any threat whatsoever, it's a low overhead, high profit sports enterprise. So even if they aren't absolutely raking it in the way they were when Shaw Park first opened and for the decade or so after that, I'm sure it's still a highly profitable business. The team pays peanuts and puts the players up with billets while they make bank off expensive tickets and the food/bev sales that are a huge part of Goldeyes games for many.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg

that's mostly parents & grandparents which is fantastic to see! my son team is also seeing decent attendance, nice to have no capacity restrictions

one of my greatest memories of crowds was my kid 2019 Peewee AA city finals @ Gateway, game 5 on a Friday night. never seen a rink so packed. teenagers surrounded the entire glass and parents, grandparents and friends packed the stands. unreal environment for 12 yr olds.

and Yes his team did win (back to back city champs baby)!

Sounds like we might have crossed paths. My son is now U18 as a 16 year old.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by Biff

Sounds like we might have crossed paths. My son is now U18 as a 16 year old.

Wild or Thrashers? My kid is a Bruins, looking at my name you can probably figure out who he is.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg

Wild or Thrashers? My kid is a Bruins, looking at my name you can probably figure out who he is.

He is only AA. Our area is Marauders/Thrashers.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I have an acquaintance who works for the Goldeyes. I don't press him for too many details but he did divulge that the return of the Jets hurt them pretty badly. A lot of their season ticket and corporate sponsorship accounts disappeared.

That's probably the biggest factor, but there are others that I can think of:

Thanks for this, makes sense overall. Curious to see how the Van Canadians can fare in a crowded market but i'm chalking that up to baseball being far more popular there than in Winnipeg.