AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[atxsnail]

Originally Posted by lonewolf

+1
yeah for the record idgaf about who or why this was voted down. the apparent reasoning used seems not just silly but also nonsensical. I was unaware it was even partisan. was it really a down the line vote?

i'm a fan of the cvc for most of the same reasons i was a fan of this vote, sure it is a pain in the ass in certain scenarios but it has created a unique downtown experience + vistas and forced people to get creative

we have a small amount of parkspace downtown. let's preserve the ones we do have as pure park spaces. not make combo transit stations/park space out of it.

it also does appear to me that this has 1 more shot to be reversed in time for construction planning and i'll be sad to see that regardless of why or whomever makes that happen

I don't think the state senate voted, they just didn't take it up before the clock ran out (which doesn't mean that someone like lt. dan didn't intentionally kill it). Not sure about the house vote, but I assume there was some bipartisanship.

I doubt there really would have been any material impact to the surface of the park though, aside from an entrance which wouldn't have taken up that much space. I guess it might have potentially been closed for a while for construction.

[Novacek]

Some more slides on the agenda packet for next week's ATP meeting. Some info on the constraints as to where to surface the tunnel south of the river.

https://www.capmetro.org/plans-development/atp/atp-board-meetings

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by atxsnail

I don't think the state senate voted, they just didn't take it up before the clock ran out (which doesn't mean that someone like lt. dan didn't intentionally kill it). Not sure about the house vote, but I assume there was some bipartisanship.

I doubt there really would have been any material impact to the surface of the park though, aside from an entrance which wouldn't have taken up that much space. I guess it might have potentially been closed for a while for construction.

makes sense, i've not noticed a much of a split on PC among partisan lines, I do see a bit of one among older/younger however. just speaking for my network

it's not so much the material change i'd be worried about as much as the spiritual one. what's your favorite single-block sized park? would you like it if the city put a transit entrance/exit on it? it would absolutely change the vibe and feel. and would fall under an additional purview eg would have to be optimized for being a transit center and not a park.

[Novacek]

So looking at the new proposals, now I'm really wondering if they'll end up doing some schedule shifting.

Assuming the train yard goes out by the airport, the Blue line basically is the first requirement. But once that hits downtown, do you then start to progressively run the Orange line out towards the ends? With all the new tunneling proposed for SoCo, does it lag the opening of the north side for a couple years?

If its the choice between the short SoCo tunnel (because it's cheaper) or the long SoCo tunnel a couple years later, which way to do you go?

I'm inclined to say the later. Better to do it right, since we're not ripping it out and redoing it any time soon.

[freerover]

I'm still concerned about Txdot getting the new riverside bridge done on time. That thing was suppose to start construction years ago until they scrapped it as an individual project.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by freerover

I'm still concerned about Txdot getting the new riverside bridge done on time. That thing was suppose to start construction years ago until they scrapped it as an individual project.

It was scrapped because of Project Connect IIRC, because it would waste money only to have to be redone again when PC is built.

[freerover]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

It was scrapped because of Project Connect IIRC, because it would waste money only to have to be redone again when PC is built.

No that had nothing to do with PC. It was integrated into the capital express project around 2018 which was then canceled by the governor for a couple years. It was right before the governor came out and said no more tolling. I don't remember when that was. It could have been 2017.

[H2O]

Originally Posted by Novacek

So looking at the new proposals, now I'm really wondering if they'll end up doing some schedule shifting.

Assuming the train yard goes out by the airport, the Blue line basically is the first requirement. But once that hits downtown, do you then start to progressively run the Orange line out towards the ends? With all the new tunneling proposed for SoCo, does it lag the opening of the north side for a couple years?

If its the choice between the short SoCo tunnel (because it's cheaper) or the long SoCo tunnel a couple years later, which way to do you go?

I'm inclined to say the later. Better to do it right, since we're not ripping it out and redoing it any time soon.

The long tunnel is definitely the way to go. Otherwise, the SoCo station doesn't serve the majority of SoCo that people want to go to, and it is too close to the Oltorf Station. There hasn't been any concrete information on budget that I am aware of, other than that it is obviously more expensive. Combined with the tunnel under LBL (as I predicted), I could see the Orange Line being delayed as you suggest, but we don't have any information on that yet, and probably won't for some time until funding commitments from FTA are secured.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by H2O

The long tunnel is definitely the way to go. Otherwise, the SoCo station doesn't serve the majority of SoCo that people want to go to, and it is too close to the Oltorf Station. There hasn't been any concrete information on budget that I am aware of, other than that it is obviously more expensive. Combined with the tunnel under LBL (as I predicted), I could see the Orange Line being delayed as you suggest, but we don't have any information on that yet, and probably won't for some time until funding commitments from FTA are secured.

As they keep extending the length of the tunnels, either one of the following will happen as the price tag soars; (1) projects opening is delayed not by a few years but by 10 years or more, or (2) a further tax increase to pay for it, like a doubling the tax.
Not mentioned in the discussion is what the FTA will be willing to support. The FTA is reluctant to spend more than absolutely needed, therefore the shorter tunnel is what they will most likely approve.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by electricron

Not mentioned in the discussion is what the FTA will be willing to support. The FTA is reluctant to spend more than absolutely needed, therefore the shorter tunnel is what they will most likely approve.

That’s not true at all, or tunnels wouldn’t even be on the table at all. They’re not “absolutely needed” but are future proofing, give operational efficiencies, and higher ridership.

Exactly the advantages of longer tunnels over short.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Novacek

That’s not true at all, or tunnels wouldn’t even be on the table at all. They’re not “absolutely needed” but are future proofing, give operational efficiencies, and higher ridership.

Exactly the advantages of longer tunnels over short.

DART wanted to build the Green Line in a tunnel under Love Field and actually have a light rail station at the Love Field terminal. FTA said no, even after DART promised to pay for all the extra expenses over the alternate route which DART eventually built.

So please do not even suggest the FTA does not look at how much light rail lines cost. Given a choice, they more than likely will choose the cheaper option. Because they do look at costs.

The best way to get the FTA to approve the longer tunnel and associated costs is to show that ridership increases more that enough to make extra costs worthwhile. I did not see a significant shift in projected ridership with either alternate. Good luck with that!

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by electricron

DART wanted to build the Green Line in a tunnel under Love Field and actually have a light rail station at the Love Field terminal. FTA said no, even after DART promised to pay for all the extra expenses over the alternate route which DART eventually built.

FTA didn't think it was worth the cost. DART paying for it doesn't make a difference, if they're being poor stewards of the project funds, that puts the whole project (and FTA's contribution) at risk.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/r...-include-Dallas-Love-Field-tunnel--12990

Originally Posted by electricron

So please do not even suggest the FTA does not look at how much light rail lines cost.

I never, ever claimed that. I'll thank you not to try to put words in my mouth (though you failed spectacularly).

They look at the tradeoffs involved. Sometimes they think costs are worth it, sometimes they think they're not.

Originally Posted by electricron

Given a choice, they more than likely will choose the cheaper option. Because they do look at costs.

Then we're not getting any tunnels whatsoever. Because a purely surface grade rail is the cheaper option. Heck, if that were the case then the FTA would never in its history have ever approved a light rail project, because buses are always cheaper.

But the truth is they look at costs _as part of a whole cost-benefit tradeoff_

Originally Posted by electricron

The best way to get the FTA to approve the longer tunnel and associated costs is to show that ridership increase more than pays off the extra costs. Or outright lie to them. Good luck with that!

The ridership, the operational efficiencies, etc.

In other words, all the factors that CM/ATP _are already looking at when making that decision_.

There's literally a whole matrix in the document I already linked


http://capmetrotx.iqm2.com/Citizens/FileOpen.aspx?Type=1&ID=1867&Inline=True

page 120

[We vs us]

Would construction on a 4th street underground promenade thingy potentially delay the projects we're starting to see materialize down that stretch? I'm thinking Railyard, 4th and Brazos, and The Republic.

The amount of under-street construction is going to be just immense. I have to assume it'll bleed into the rest of the stuff in the area.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by freerover

No that had nothing to do with PC. It was integrated into the capital express project around 2018 which was then canceled by the governor for a couple years. It was right before the governor came out and said no more tolling. I don't remember when that was. It could have been 2017.

Ah. Thank you!

Now that you said this, I do remember that.

[StoOgE]

Originally Posted by We vs us

Would construction on a 4th street underground promenade thingy potentially delay the projects we're starting to see materialize down that stretch? I'm thinking Railyard, 4th and Brazos, and The Republic.

The amount of under-street construction is going to be just immense. I have to assume it'll bleed into the rest of the stuff in the area.

It depends - and some of what you are seeing being announced may happen in conjuction with this promenade. Being "connected" to the rail hub will be a good selling point for offices and condos (get to the airport without even going outside!).

If the city is smart here they can likely even get some of these developers to help out in exchange for direct connections to their buildings. NYC does it. I mean, we're not NYC but we're pretty hoppin.

[H2O]

Originally Posted by StoOgE

It depends - and some of what you are seeing being announced may happen in conjuction with this promenade. Being "connected" to the rail hub will be a good selling point for offices and condos (get to the airport without even going outside!).

If the city is smart here they can likely even get some of these developers to help out in exchange for direct connections to their buildings. NYC does it. I mean, we're not NYC but we're pretty hoppin.

Any station amenities such as retail and restaurants would almost certainly have to be within the lower levels of the adjacent buildings opening into the concourse, not directly in the station concourse within the ROW. There isn't really enough room, and it would be very legally complex to put those in the ROW.

[ahealy]

Originally Posted by StoOgE

It depends - and some of what you are seeing being announced may happen in conjuction with this promenade. Being "connected" to the rail hub will be a good selling point for offices and condos (get to the airport without even going outside!).

If the city is smart here they can likely even get some of these developers to help out in exchange for direct connections to their buildings. NYC does it. I mean, we're not NYC but we're pretty hoppin.

Reading this I actually wonder...and wouldn't be surprised if some of those projects might re-invent themselves to be a bit more "world class" since they'd likely tie into our subway line.

[We vs us]

This helped me visualize the issue a little more clearly. Though . . . it looks like it would put the DT stations much further below ground than maybe originally thought.

Hence the whole 4th street underground gallery thingy. There's suddenly room for a couple of underground levels of fun.

EDIT: also this slide was enlightening.

[StoOgE]

We're going to feel like such a large city when this is all up and running. I hope phase 2 start to form shortly so we can get trains going to the SW and NE to DT as well.

[H2O]

Originally Posted by We vs us

This helped me visualize the issue a little more clearly. Though . . . it looks like it would put the DT stations much further below ground than maybe originally thought.

Hence the whole 4th street underground gallery thingy. There's suddenly room for a couple of underground levels of fun.

EDIT: also this slide was enlightening.

Underground rail stations (subways) typically have at least 2 levels. There is the station platform level, and a mezzanine level that allows you to cross over the tracks to go the other direction, or access a center platform. The mezzanine level typically connects to surface level entrances and to adjacent properties. The longer the trains are (like in heavy rail subways), the entrances can be quite far apart and mezzanines can be quite long. When there is an exchange station where trains running different directions cross, they are at different levels as well and may have more than one mezzanine level connecting them. They can get quite complex!