Calgary Public Transit II

[youngregina]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

mini metro. the subway planning game

just download and try it

http://dinopoloclub.com/minimetro/

Super fun. I was only able to carry 330 people before game over. I really hope that there will be some way to fund at least the NC LRT at some point soon. I think that it would be more beneficial to serve that area as LRT and the SE as BRT for the near future. There is space for extra lanes in the south, that area can handle transportation for a while. But with more people living in the NE, Deerfoot north is getting more crowded, along with airport traffic and everyone entering the city from that end of town. I can see the NC LRT becoming the quicker way for people to commute downtown from Beddington and places north of Nose Hill, where everyone has to go east or west before hitting a major highway of sorts. I can also see commuters from Airdrie using the last station as a more viable Park'n'ride than what is currently Saddletowne. At least with the south line, there is already a good capture for out of town commuters from the south. Also, the SE as it sits right now if already serves by a large deerfoot highway AND the new ring road for industrial commuters. As far as how many people are actually going to be commuting downtown from the SE, I would say dedicated throughways for buses would be the cheapest and most logical way to go. At least then we would be able to see usage potential for a new LRT line that could take over later.

However, I would also like to see a Glenmore crosstown rapid transit of any kind. I think the service for this East-West commuting pattern is greatly underdeveloped.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by youngregina

Super fun. I was only able to carry 330 people before game over. I really hope that there will be some way to fund at least the NC LRT at some point soon. I think that it would be more beneficial to serve that area as LRT and the SE as BRT for the near future. There is space for extra lanes in the south, that area can handle transportation for a while. But with more people living in the NE, Deerfoot north is getting more crowded, along with airport traffic and everyone entering the city from that end of town. I can see the NC LRT becoming the quicker way for people to commute downtown from Beddington and places north of Nose Hill, where everyone has to go east or west before hitting a major highway of sorts. I can also see commuters from Airdrie using the last station as a more viable Park'n'ride than what is currently Saddletowne. At least with the south line, there is already a good capture for out of town commuters from the south. Also, the SE as it sits right now if already serves by a large deerfoot highway AND the new ring road for industrial commuters. As far as how many people are actually going to be commuting downtown from the SE, I would say dedicated throughways for buses would be the cheapest and most logical way to go. At least then we would be able to see usage potential for a new LRT line that could take over later.

However, I would also like to see a Glenmore crosstown rapid transit of any kind. I think the service for this East-West commuting pattern is greatly underdeveloped.

While I agree from a purely capacity perspective, you're not going to get buy in from the SE to fund a line in another quadrant after the west line.

The plan that was approved by council a few weeks back is a good example of this it gives an increase in high frequency service to everyone rather than just one area.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by youngregina

Super fun. I was only able to carry 330 people before game over. I really hope that there will be some way to fund at least the NC LRT at some point soon. I think that it would be more beneficial to serve that area as LRT and the SE as BRT for the near future. There is space for extra lanes in the south, that area can handle transportation for a while. But with more people living in the NE, Deerfoot north is getting more crowded, along with airport traffic and everyone entering the city from that end of town. I can see the NC LRT becoming the quicker way for people to commute downtown from Beddington and places north of Nose Hill, where everyone has to go east or west before hitting a major highway of sorts. I can also see commuters from Airdrie using the last station as a more viable Park'n'ride than what is currently Saddletowne. At least with the south line, there is already a good capture for out of town commuters from the south. Also, the SE as it sits right now if already serves by a large deerfoot highway AND the new ring road for industrial commuters. As far as how many people are actually going to be commuting downtown from the SE, I would say dedicated throughways for buses would be the cheapest and most logical way to go. At least then we would be able to see usage potential for a new LRT line that could take over later.

However, I would also like to see a Glenmore crosstown rapid transit of any kind. I think the service for this East-West commuting pattern is greatly underdeveloped.

I completely agree for Glenmore, but not at all for the SELRT. More than just commuting DT the SE needs an lrt so that people who work in places like Quarry Park but live in other quadrants of the city can take transit there. And Deerfoot northbound from the deep SE is a gong show every day and should not be dismissed because of the new ring road. Majority of people in the SE still rely on Deerfoot as Stoney takes you very far out of the way if you are commuting somewhere central.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Imperial chose to relocate from somewhere with good transit access to somewhere with poor transit for their financial benefit. The city shouldn't be expected to foot the bill for their selfish decision. The same goes for people who've moved into the deep south east.

Excuse me but the entire SE shouldn't be punished for IOL's selfish decision. The city never should have approved it anyway. I live and work in the deep SE and the impact that QP has on traffic is staggering. I shudder to think what it will be like when Imperial is fully moved in, even with their private buses.

Saying fuck you to the city's fastest growing quadrant is not realistic or productive.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Excuse me but the entire SE shouldn't be punished for IOL's selfish decision. The city never should have approved it anyway. I live and work in the deep SE and the impact that QP has on traffic is staggering. I shudder to think what it will be like when Imperial is fully moved in, even with their private buses.

Saying fuck you to the city's fastest growing quadrant is not realistic or productive.

I'm talking more about the people who've bought a house way down in the SE, knowing that it is poorly connected and then complaining about how awful their commute downtown is. To people like yourself who work in the area, fair enough, I sympathize. I don't think we should encourage more growth down there at this time though and I think a BRT system is a good compromise right now.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

Well, they need to think about the SE too.

Imperial Oil is moving to Quarry Park quicker than planned and it is going to be a nightmare to get there by public transit. Imperial Oil is moving at least 500 employees there this summer, with the bulk of the 3000 employees there by end 2015. There's really only the poor 302 bus that is in any way useful and these Green Line improvements can't come soon enough. As it is, the transit is so poor that the City is guaranteeing that the majority of the employees who presently use public transit will switch to cars because there is no other way to cope. NOT impressive.

Is the City responsible for this, or is Imperial Oil. The City didn't force Imperial to move out of the downtown. It is their choice, and they should bear the consequences.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by fusili

Is the City responsible for this, or is Imperial Oil. The City didn't force Imperial to move out of the downtown. It is their choice, and they should bear the consequences.

I blame the city for allowing them to move there and approving QP in its current form without real transit. I went there today and the amount of vehicles is staggering. The entire SE part of the city will suffer for this and I don't think that's fair. Then again, the city's idea was probably that because QP was also offering residential that people would just live and work there. Of course reality is a bitch.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I blame the city for allowing them to move there and approving QP in its current form without real transit. I went there today and the amount of vehicles is staggering. The entire SE part of the city will suffer for this and I don't think that's fair. Then again, the city's idea was probably that because QP was also offering residential that people would just live and work there. Of course reality is a bitch.

It's 5:57 right now. According to Google Maps, in the next 15 minutes there are two buses to Anderson, one to Chinook and two BRT runs directly to downtown. What constitutes "real" transit to you?

And how did you get to QP that a few cars is "staggering"? What other corporate and personal moves should the City be allowing and disallowing, in your opinion?

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

It's 5:57 right now. According to Google Maps, in the next 15 minutes there are two buses to Anderson, one to Chinook and two BRT runs directly to downtown. What constitutes "real" transit to you?

And how did you get to QP that a few cars is "staggering"? What other corporate and personal moves should the City be allowing and disallowing, in your opinion?

I have watched QP grow over the last 4,1/2years and also the piecemeal fashion in which the city has tried to play catch up with all the traffic. I realize that technically it is a future TOD, but the emphasis should be on future. Right now the traffic come 4:00 any day of the week trying to get on to Deerfoot from Douglasdale brings everything to a standstill. The line up goes all the way around the bend into QP. Haven't seen the Gelnmore side of it recently but I can only imagine it's the same.

What do I consider real transit? Quite simple. A train. Having to transfer from multiple buses to get to your destination is not a solution most people will embrace. You need to make it fast and easy to have people buy in. DT works because the train beats sitting in traffic and parking is expensive. Since QP has plenty of free parking they need to make either a train or a BRT in the short term more appealing than the gong show it will be once IOL moves in.

I don't work in QP but occasionally go there for business. Any time I have to travel north at the end of a work day, which only happens once in a while, I have an awful choice to make: take Deerfoot which stops at Douglasdale or Glenmore which is a whole other crap sandwich. Shepard road isn't even an option anymore as it is completely filled with trucks during the rush hour.

[mellbell416]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

It's 5:57 right now. According to Google Maps, in the next 15 minutes there are two buses to Anderson, one to Chinook and two BRT runs directly to downtown. What constitutes "real" transit to you?

Let's not pretend that the transit situation is better than it actually is. The Chinook bus only runs 6 times a day. The two buses to Anderson are coming from Mackenzie Town and don't come particularly close to IOL. Same for the 72/73 (and boy, that bus takes forever to get anywhere). The only presently useful bus to get out of the SE from is the 302. I am sure that the city will improve access to these routes over time, but we need to eliminate transfers otherwise people just won't take public transit. The South Crosstown route would be an enormous help. Also, if we would extend the 302 route up Centre Street North, that would be amazing as well.

As it is, if you try to get to QP from anywhere other than SE, the route plans are very depressing.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

Let's not pretend that the transit situation is better than it actually is. The Chinook bus only runs 6 times a day. The two buses to Anderson are coming from Mackenzie Town and don't come particularly close to IOL. Same for the 72/73 (and boy, that bus takes forever to get anywhere). The only presently useful bus to get out of the SE from is the 302. I am sure that the city will improve access to these routes over time, but we need to eliminate transfers otherwise people just won't take public transit. The South Crosstown route would be an enormous help. Also, if we would extend the 302 route up Centre Street North, that would be amazing as well.

As it is, if you try to get to QP from anywhere other than SE, the route plans are very depressing.

Agreed. Transit needs improving. Some issues though:

Interlining the 302 with the 301 will pose ridership challenges. As much as SE residents hate to admit it, the north segment of the 301 has vastly higher ridership than the 302 (Fall 2010 daily ridership of 14.5K for the whole 301 (included the West leg) vs 2.8K for the 302). Assuming 1/2 of 301 riders were north end users, that makes a ridership difference of 7.3:2.8, or roughly 3x the riders on the north central portion of the route. That is a lot of empty buses heading to the SE.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by fusili

Is the City responsible for this, or is Imperial Oil. The City didn't force Imperial to move out of the downtown. It is their choice, and they should bear the consequences.

The city is responsible for approving the Remington Development for Quarry Park in its present form. Also the city is responsible for planning and promoting the office intensive transit oriented development without adequately planning for the amount of vehicular traffic that would occur with such an office intensive development.

Another option the city could have taken was to approve the TOD scheme but heavily limit the car parking in the area, basically making transit the only option for the area. Additionally the city could have required Remington to cough up some funds to pay for the necessary transit improvements.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by fusili

Agreed. Transit needs improving. Some issues though:

Interlining the 302 with the 301 will pose ridership challenges. As much as SE residents hate to admit it, the north segment of the 301 has vastly higher ridership than the 302 (Fall 2010 daily ridership of 14.5K for the whole 301 (included the West leg) vs 2.8K for the 302). Assuming 1/2 of 301 riders were north end users, that makes a ridership difference of 7.3:2.8, or roughly 3x the riders on the north central portion of the route. That is a lot of empty buses heading to the SE.

I think that may change as more businesses move into QP. Then again, you're right that it is a gamble. To me I think it needs to be advertised more loudly by the city that there are transit options to get there from outside the SE.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I have watched QP grow over the last 4,1/2years and also the piecemeal fashion in which the city has tried to play catch up with all the traffic. I realize that technically it is a future TOD, but the emphasis should be on future. Right now the traffic come 4:00 any day of the week trying to get on to Deerfoot from Douglasdale brings everything to a standstill. The line up goes all the way around the bend into QP. Haven't seen the Gelnmore side of it recently but I can only imagine it's the same.

What do I consider real transit? Quite simple. A train. Having to transfer from multiple buses to get to your destination is not a solution most people will embrace. You need to make it fast and easy to have people buy in. DT works because the train beats sitting in traffic and parking is expensive. Since QP has plenty of free parking they need to make either a train or a BRT in the short term more appealing than the gong show it will be once IOL moves in.

I don't work in QP but occasionally go there for business. Any time I have to travel north at the end of a work day, which only happens once in a while, I have an awful choice to make: take Deerfoot which stops at Douglasdale or Glenmore which is a whole other crap sandwich. Shepard road isn't even an option anymore as it is completely filled with trucks during the rush hour.

So if there is free parking and traffic will people use transit? I suspect not until traffic is absolute chaos, or parking becomes expensive will you see people change their commuting patterns.

Should there be better transit to QP? Sure, but maybe we start with a better routing and less stops for the 302 that doesn't involve the stupid detour along QP Blvd and 18 st, just continue south on 24 st to 114 ave. Or at very minimum get rid of one of the stops in that section. It's about a 15 minute walk from one stop to the other, every additional stop just adds potential delays to the route. There are 4 stops within 2km (~25 min walk) from the corner of AP Blvd & 18 St to the timing stop on 114 Ave, the 302 is supposes to be limited stop bus, in this section it seems more like a milk run.

Lets be honest here the train is going to go down 24 st why are we sending our train precursor (seems to be how BRT is viewed in Calgary) off on some side trip, make this route reflect as close as possible the planned route and stop spacing (max. 18 stops) of the LRT.

Edit: The stop spacing issue is one that affects the whole system there are 3 stops in ~400m from 10th St & 20 Ave NW to 10 St & 16 Ave NW, both south and north bound. I get that one of the goals is to provide a certain level service to every place in the city but at some point the reliability of the system needs to take priority over have 3 possible stops within a 5 min walk.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Cage

The city is responsible for approving the Remington Development for Quarry Park in its present form. Also the city is responsible for planning and promoting the office intensive transit oriented development without adequately planning for the amount of vehicular traffic that would occur with such an office intensive development.

Another option the city could have taken was to approve the TOD scheme but heavily limit the car parking in the area, basically making transit the only option for the area. Additionally the city could have required Remington to cough up some funds to pay for the necessary transit improvements.

This last part is where they really shat the bed. I know Remington is offering to pay for part of the 24th St. alignment, but it's still not enough.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Cage

The city is responsible for approving the Remington Development for Quarry Park in its present form. Also the city is responsible for planning and promoting the office intensive transit oriented development without adequately planning for the amount of vehicular traffic that would occur with such an office intensive development.

Another option the city could have taken was to approve the TOD scheme but heavily limit the car parking in the area, basically making transit the only option for the area. Additionally the city could have required Remington to cough up some funds to pay for the necessary transit improvements.

Fair point.

[mellbell416]

Originally Posted by fusili

Agreed. Transit needs improving. Some issues though:

Interlining the 302 with the 301 will pose ridership challenges. As much as SE residents hate to admit it, the north segment of the 301 has vastly higher ridership than the 302 (Fall 2010 daily ridership of 14.5K for the whole 301 (included the West leg) vs 2.8K for the 302). Assuming 1/2 of 301 riders were north end users, that makes a ridership difference of 7.3:2.8, or roughly 3x the riders on the north central portion of the route. That is a lot of empty buses heading to the SE.

You don't need to add more 302 buses - the frequency is a lot better now, and is running every 10 minutes during peak times. You just need to extend the route to the north.

[MalcolmTucker]

So Edmonton was able to get a commitment for $400 million more for their LRT from the provincial government. Not really sure if $150 million of the matching funds is MSI or something new. $250 million from GreenTRIP.

How much is the property tax infrastructure fund thing per year? Also, the province cut the mill rate for education tax by 4.5% this year, will the city grab it again? Things might start to add up to a practical amount of money.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

So Edmonton was able to get a commitment for $400 million more for their LRT from the provincial government. Not really sure if $150 million of the matching funds is MSI or something new. $250 million from GreenTRIP.

How much is the property tax infrastructure fund thing per year? Also, the province cut the mill rate for education tax by 4.5% this year, will the city grab it again? Things might start to add up to a practical amount of money.

I believe it keeps being quotes at ~$52M/year. Council committed to taking it for the next 10 years, (not sure if this was just the original amount or the 4.5% that you mention though).

[Chadillaccc]

Calgary's LRT ridership has grown to 298 000 per day! With the city coming very close to 600 000 total transit trips per weekday With the new addition of 55 000 hours of bus transit service, ridership should increase even more quickly over the next few months. Here's hoping for 305 000 LRT and 600 000 total transit trips by Q1 2014!

http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/2013-q4-ridership-APTA.pdf