Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[dleung]

Originally Posted by misher

People don't really question Manitoba's equalization compared to Quebec's. It's honestly a poor province with a high percentage of First Nations. There's just little going for it. I think a lot of Canadians look at Quebec and say you have so much going for you plus the government provides so much support (offices and jobs) so why do you still need more support? whereas Manitoba has so much going bad and desperately needs our help. We say "Manitoba" but realistically the ones who really need our help are the FN reserves in Manitoba as you'll see below. So we're not helping Manitoba here we're helping the FN. If you look at any of the charts below Quebec doesn't look like it needs our help and you really wonder why they need it. Quebec has one of the lower unemployment and poverty rates in Canada.

Lol Well there's the whole quid pro quo factor re: separation, hence everything including equalization favors them

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by dleung

Lol Well there's the whole quid pro quo factor re: separation, hence everything including equalization favors them

Again, the vast majority of Manitoban's do not want separation. Sure, many of us do not care for how we are treated by Ottawa at times (what else is new, it's been this way since our entry into confederation), but we do not share the separatist mentality of Alberta or Saskatchewan.

Just to be clear

[fredinno]

I'd like to point out a critical flaw in Wexit: If The Prairies separate from Canada, wouldn't their economy be worse off because they wouldn't be able to export anything without hitting a border crossing?


Neither Wexiters nor Vancouverites want to have Metro Van join a Western State, so that would imply only Prince Rupert and Churchill would be available as exporting ports. And that assumes Manitoba and the BC Interior join in- and whether it's even possible to split a province apart before separating it from a country.


Metro Vancouver would likely end up as Western Canada's Republic of Danzig (minus a Germany trying to annex it, obviously). Vancouver Island especially would be a perpetual pain in the back of 'Western Canada', being pretty much primarily the ideological opposite of Alberta.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I'd like to point out a critical flaw in Wexit: If The Prairies separate from Canada, wouldn't their economy be worse off because they wouldn't be able to export anything without hitting a border crossing?


Neither Wexiters nor Vancouverites want to have Metro Van join a Western State, so that would imply only Prince Rupert and Winnipeg would be available as exporting ports. And that assumes Manitoba and the BC Interior join in- and whether it's even possible to split a province apart before separating it from a country.


Metro Vancouver would likely end up as Western Canada's Republic of Danzig (minus a Germany trying to annex it, obviously). Vancouver Island especially would be a perpetual pain in the back of 'Western Canada', being pretty much primarily the ideological opposite of Alberta.

Check your geography son. Winnipeg is landlocked.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I'd like to point out a critical flaw in Wexit: If The Prairies separate from Canada, wouldn't their economy be worse off because they wouldn't be able to export anything without hitting a border crossing?


Neither Wexiters nor Vancouverites want to have Metro Van join a Western State, so that would imply only Prince Rupert and Winnipeg would be available as exporting ports. And that assumes Manitoba and the BC Interior join in- and whether it's even possible to split a province apart before separating it from a country.


Metro Vancouver would likely end up as Western Canada's Republic of Danzig (minus a Germany trying to annex it, obviously). Vancouver Island especially would be a perpetual pain in the back of 'Western Canada', being pretty much primarily the ideological opposite of Alberta.

I think you mean Churchill, not Winnipeg. We do have a growing inland port, but nothing connected to waterways.

[misher]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I'd like to point out a critical flaw in Wexit: If The Prairies separate from Canada, wouldn't their economy be worse off because they wouldn't be able to export anything without hitting a border crossing?


Neither Wexiters nor Vancouverites want to have Metro Van join a Western State, so that would imply only Prince Rupert and Winnipeg would be available as exporting ports. And that assumes Manitoba and the BC Interior join in- and whether it's even possible to split a province apart before separating it from a country.


Metro Vancouver would likely end up as Western Canada's Republic of Danzig (minus a Germany trying to annex it, obviously). Vancouver Island especially would be a perpetual pain in the back of 'Western Canada', being pretty much primarily the ideological opposite of Alberta.

Richmond and most of the interior of BC though. Plus the Yukon is close.

[fredinno]

Look, I don't proof-read my posts, ok?

Originally Posted by misher

Richmond and most of the interior of BC though. Plus the Yukon is close.

I pointed that out. Logistically splitting BC apart for Wexit is likely to be a nightmare.

A lot of the Vancouver suburbs are conservative or mixed-party. But splitting Metro Van on the Fraser would be a nightmare for everybody. People would be constantly commuting across countries!

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Does Timmins need a transit system?

Yes it does. We did have some years where ridership was pretty low but it has increased a lot over the last few years, especially with the Northern College students. Our city is on a long East-West line and doesn't need a huge number of routes to cover most of the population.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Yes it does. We did have some years where ridership was pretty low but it has increased a lot over the last few years, especially with the Northern College students. Our city is on a long East-West line and doesn't need a huge number of routes to cover most of the population.

Have you guys asked Justin and Doug to buy you some eco-friendly buses or at least pay for 75%+ of the cost? If you can make a decent business case this is an investment I think most people would support. Ontario's big enough where you guys could put in a bulk order with a bus company to get some good deals and then allocate the buses to smaller sized cities.

[b31den]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I'd like to point out a critical flaw in Wexit: If The Prairies separate from Canada, wouldn't their economy be worse off because they wouldn't be able to export anything without hitting a border crossing?


Neither Wexiters nor Vancouverites want to have Metro Van join a Western State, so that would imply only Prince Rupert and Churchill would be available as exporting ports. And that assumes Manitoba and the BC Interior join in- and whether it's even possible to split a province apart before separating it from a country.


Metro Vancouver would likely end up as Western Canada's Republic of Danzig (minus a Germany trying to annex it, obviously). Vancouver Island especially would be a perpetual pain in the back of 'Western Canada', being pretty much primarily the ideological opposite of Alberta.

It wouldnt work to split provinces up. Cities in Canada exist and prosper because of the wealth brought in from the hinterlands. Services employ more people and make more direct wealth, but ultimately the cities all use the rest of their provinces as colonies. In Toronto's case this extends to the entire country. No city in canada would do well as a city-state nation.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Have you guys asked Justin and Doug to buy you some eco-friendly buses or at least pay for 75%+ of the cost? If you can make a decent business case this is an investment I think most people would support. Ontario's big enough where you guys could put in a bulk order with a bus company to get some good deals and then allocate the buses to smaller sized cities.

If only it worked that way. It seems transit authorities are afraid of pooling their orders.

[milomilo]

If I was a transit company I'd be hesitant to jump on a new technology just yet. Who knows what the best technology is going to be, and any EV bus you buy will likely be vastly worse than one bought in a few years time. Calgary just went all in on CNG buses, which considering the price of NG here probably makes financial sense today, but does seem quite old fashioned, and if the carbon price is jacked up that cheap fuel won't be as cheap in the future.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by milomilo

If I was a transit company I'd be hesitant to jump on a new technology just yet. Who knows what the best technology is going to be, and any EV bus you buy will likely be vastly worse than one bought in a few years time. Calgary just went all in on CNG buses, which considering the price of NG here probably makes financial sense today, but does seem quite old fashioned, and if the carbon price is jacked up that cheap fuel won't be as cheap in the future.

Calgary’s power is entirely sourced from fossil fuels. So you either pay the carbon tax while putting the NG directly into the vehicle, or you pay the carbon tax on the fossil fuel combusted time create the electricity for the EV bus.

[milomilo]

Calgary's electricity isn't just fossil fuels, and that can/should/will change in the future. And burning fossil fuels in a central location is more efficient than in multiple tiny engines, though once you factor in electrical conversion losses for EV buses vs using a CNG bus, I'm not sure how that plays out.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Have you guys asked Justin and Doug to buy you some eco-friendly buses or at least pay for 75%+ of the cost? If you can make a decent business case this is an investment I think most people would support. Ontario's big enough where you guys could put in a bulk order with a bus company to get some good deals and then allocate the buses to smaller sized cities.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If only it worked that way. It seems transit authorities are afraid of pooling their orders.

Ontario does do this, through Metrolinx. It's called the Transit Procurement Initiative. http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/tpi/tpi.aspx

Most of the smaller cities, like Timmins, Sudbury, Kingston, Peterborough, Chatham, Cornwall, Sarnia etc. get their buses through that program.

[kwoldtimer]

Fun opinion piece from Konrad Yakabuski in the G&M today says that, under the Kenney equalization plan, Quebec would have received $10B MORE over the past decade than under the current formula.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business...an-quebecs-equalization-take-would-grow/

[misher]

A funny little bit of hypocrisy as environmental activists snub Canadian oil but support Middle Eastern Oil. I still think its mentally insane to want us to cut down on our oil and instead import it. We can at least control our oil and how its produced, we can't control how other nations produce theirs:

HSBC's stunning energy and human-rights hypocrisy: It ditched oilpatch only to embrace Saudi Arabia
Two years ago, HSBC said it wouldn't work with Canadian energy companies anymore. But it's still happy to do business with Saudi Arabia's

In the summer of 2018, HSBC announced a new energy policy under which it would stop providing financial services to a large portion of the Canadian energy industry. The move directly targeted Canada, despite this country’s record of environmental innovation and protection. The bank said its energy policy was designed to encourage economic development without having an unacceptable impact on people or the environment. Activist groups cheered the move and wagged their fingers at Canada’s energy industry, urging the country to get on board an ill-defined anti-industry movement.

Little did we know that soon after waving goodbye to Canada, HSBC would fly into the open arms of Saudi Arabia, a regime notorious for a poor human rights record and lacking Canada’s stringent regulations and high environmental standards. You may have heard that the world’s largest oil company, Saudi Aramco, based in Saudi Arabia, has been preparing for an initial public offering (IPO) of shares.

HSBC has been a leading global co-ordinator in the IPO process, working with the industry it so publicly disassociated itself from in Canada not even two years ago. Earlier this year, HSBC also worked with Aramco on its first international bond offering.

Report after report points to Canada as a global leader with high environmental, social and human rights standards. The Environmental Performance Index produced by Yale University and Columbia University in collaboration with the World Economic Forum ranks Canada sixth for overall environmental health and fourth in terms of air quality. By comparison, Saudi Arabia ranks 53rd and 56th, respectively.

In a measure of 51 societal and environmental indicators — the Social Progress Index from Deloitte and the Social Progress Imperative — Canada ranks ninth out of 149 countries. You’ll find Saudi Arabia down in 90th spot.

Canada’s oil and natural gas industry has not wavered in its commitment to continuous improvement. According to data from the Government of Canada’s 2019 National Inventory Report, Canada’s oil sands per barrel greenhouse gas emissions have fallen 32 per cent since 1990. Our energy industry has a demonstrable record of innovation, environmental protection and climate action. In 2016 alone, it invested $3.7 billion on environmental protection — nearly half the total of all Canadian business spending on the environment.

So why did HSBC leave Canada’s oilpatch? It can’t be because of human rights or the environment. Supporting Saudi oil does nothing for human rights or the environment.

HSBC’s decision not to provide financial services to Canadian energy did not signal the end of oil. It was simply more capital bleeding out of Canada’s industry and into parts of the world that don’t share our degree of concern for environmental protection, emissions reductions and human rights.

Demand for oil and natural gas continues to grow. In fact, the International Energy Agency’s World Energy Outlook 2019 says global demand for oil and natural gas will increase until the end of its forecast period and beyond and that they will remain the dominant sources of global energy.

Given the reality of the world’s energy needs, where should its oil supply come from? Participants in an international survey conducted by Ipsos on behalf of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, said they would prefer to import Canadian oil, ranking Canada No. 1 in a list of the world’s 11 major oil and natural gas producing nations.

If HSBC is truly interested in decisions that benefit people and the environment, then, like the rest of the world, it should put Canada at the top of the list as the supplier of choice.

https://business.financialpost.com/opini...es-oilpatch-only-to-embrace-saudi-arabia

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Ontario does do this, through Metrolinx. It's called the Transit Procurement Initiative. http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/tpi/tpi.aspx

Most of the smaller cities, like Timmins, Sudbury, Kingston, Peterborough, Chatham, Cornwall, Sarnia etc. get their buses through that program.

That's one problem solved for Timmins. How much do the province and feds provide to buy buses? A fleet of 10 buses with some smart scheduling would probably provide Timmins with decent service.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

That's one problem solved for Timmins. How much do the province and feds provide to buy buses? A fleet of 10 buses with some smart scheduling would probably provide Timmins with decent service.

Timmins already has a bus-based transit system. Has for many decades.

[vid]

And in Ontario, the province buys the buses for the cities. The cities just maintain and insure them, but all the capital funding for vehicle procurement in smaller cities is provincially funded and the buses have "Government of Ontario" stickers on them.