Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

That vision doesn't include the freight traffic that takes precedence on this track, and the delays caused by it, just like on the West Coast Express. It also doesn't include an answer to the crucial question: where is the money going to come from to build the stations and buy the trains?

It's of course just a fantasy and doesn't focus on how to fund it, but the idea is good in my opinion. I don't think we will ever see real Skytrain to the North Shore, but a commuter train along the shore would make sense to connect the different communities and the ever-growing Eastern Metro (which according to the studies is driving lots of the recent traffic congestion on Ironworkers Bridge).

I realize that there are also freight trains using the route, but how active they really are? They have the train bridge over Second Narrows up for hours every day (for no apparent reason) so there cannot be that much freight traffic utilizing that route.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Klazu

It's of course just a fantasy and doesn't focus on how to fund it, but the idea is good in my opinion. I don't think we will ever see real Skytrain to the North Shore, but a commuter train along the shore would make sense to connect the different communities and the ever-growing Eastern Metro (which according to the studies is driving lots of the recent traffic congestion on Ironworkers Bridge).

I realize that there are also freight trains using the route, but how active they really are? They have the train bridge over Second Narrows up for hours every day (for no apparent reason) so there cannot be that much freight traffic utilizing that route.

This is something I have never understood. The service has not been increased from single line in 20 years.

Go Trains when from 2 lines to 7 lines in 15 years.

AMT went from 2 lines to 6 lines in 18 years.

With the people of British Columbia saying they are ecofriendly and never expanding their commuter rail service says otherwise. Granted they have expanded their Skytrain, but, with the current construction, the TTC will still have the largest.

Translink needs to start to focus on building more commuter rail. The North Shore, White Rock, Abbotsford via Surrey and Langley, and the Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal are all places where they could expand service to. Just like the Go train and the AMT, the new lines should stop at other Skytrain stations.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is something I have never understood. The service has not been increased from single line in 20 years.

Go Trains when from 2 lines to 7 lines in 15 years.

AMT went from 2 lines to 6 lines in 18 years.

With the people of British Columbia saying they are ecofriendly and never expanding their commuter rail service says otherwise. Granted they have expanded their Skytrain, but, with the current construction, the TTC will still have the largest.

Translink needs to start to focus on building more commuter rail. The North Shore, White Rock, Abbotsford via Surrey and Langley, and the Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal are all places where they could expand service to. Just like the Go train and the AMT, the new lines should stop at other Skytrain stations.

We just don't really have any viable corridors for commuter rail. From downtown I suppose you could have a line going straight south and diagonally to the Valley, but going south it's really not that necessary considering it only takes an hour to get downtown from Tsawwassen using regular transit. I do think it'd be nice to have one mirroring the Expo Line through to Abbotsford or Chilliwack, but there isn't a rail corridor that would be easy to use for it, so it probably won't happen until SkyTrain to Langley is at full capacity.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

We just don't really have any viable corridors for commuter rail. From downtown I suppose you could have a line going straight south and diagonally to the Valley, but going south it's really not that necessary considering it only takes an hour to get downtown from Tsawwassen using regular transit. I do think it'd be nice to have one mirroring the Expo Line through to Abbotsford or Chilliwack, but there isn't a rail corridor that would be easy to use for it, so it probably won't happen until SkyTrain to Langley is at full capacity.

And if you could get downtown by rail in a half hour or 45 minutes?

My point was that the other commuter rail services in Canada have expanded yet the WCE doesn't.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

And if you could get downtown by rail in a half hour or 45 minutes?

My point was that the other commuter rail services in Canada have expanded yet the WCE doesn't.

That would be great, but both those cities have existing rail lines for easy use. If we wanted service to the ferries, we would need to build it from scratch and it would cost basically the same as a light rail line. I also want the West Coast Express to expand, but our existing rail infrastructure limits it. And I'd rather we spend the millions of dollars it would cost to build a new corridor on improved SkyTrain and bus service.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

That would be great, but both those cities have existing rail lines for easy use. If we wanted service to the ferries, we would need to build it from scratch and it would cost basically the same as a light rail line. I also want the West Coast Express to expand, but our existing rail infrastructure limits it. And I'd rather we spend the millions of dollars it would cost to build a new corridor on improved SkyTrain and bus service.

For Tsawwassen Terminal, about 7-8km of new track would need to be laid.
For Horseshoe Bay, the rail line is within 100m.

My point is that doing 4 more lines would follow the AMT and GO expansion. Even having 1 or 2 more lines within 20 years would really be nice.

[officedweller]

I think the problem is that any commuter rail service from south of Fraser to downtown Vancouver would have to use the overburdened New Westminster rail bridge.

I think would be limited utility in establishing a commuter rail line on the SRY if bus service does a reasonable job of feeding SkyTrain.

The only extension I could see is connecting Abbotsford to Mission, but I don't know the details of that rail bridge.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think the problem is that any commuter rail service from south of Fraser to downtown Vancouver would have to use the overburdened New Westminster rail bridge.

I think would be limited utility in establishing a commuter rail line on the SRY if bus service does a reasonable job of feeding SkyTrain.

The only extension I could see is connecting Abbotsford to Mission, but I don't know the details of that rail bridge.

My issue with that is that it ignores the markets that are important for Abbotsford workers–Langley and Surrey. That's why I think any commuter rail from there needs to be an RER line mirroring the Expo Line, because it will get people to where they need to go, not just downtown.

[Political_R]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

My issue with that is that it ignores the markets that are important for Abbotsford workers–Langley and Surrey. That's why I think any commuter rail from there needs to be an RER line mirroring the Expo Line, because it will get people to where they need to go, not just downtown.

A new rail bridge in New Westminster would not only help commuters but I see this as an opportunity to relive connecting buses to Skytrain including Canada Line by allowing a potential high speed rail line from the border into Vancouver. (reduced speeds after crossing the Fraser due to geometry). I was recently thinking if there would be the potential to relieve some stress on Skytrain before crossing the Fraser with an all day RER like service along the SRY trackage? I know the condition of the track is not great but it is a starting point of what to envision.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Political_R

A new rail bridge in New Westminster would not only help commuters but I see this as an opportunity to relive connecting buses to Skytrain including Canada Line by allowing a potential high speed rail line from the border into Vancouver. (reduced speeds after crossing the Fraser due to geometry). I was recently thinking if there would be the potential to relieve some stress on Skytrain before crossing the Fraser with an all day RER like service along the SRY trackage? I know the condition of the track is not great but it is a starting point of what to envision.

A new bridge would really help the Cascades train from Portland as well. But even if the track was restored to better condition, it's indirect and has many curves which prohibits it from higher speeds. If you look at the rail systems in Montreal and Toronto, it's pretty easy to see why their commuter rail is so developed: their rail lines go directly into downtown in mostly straight lines. It's really frustrating and the only option I really see is to go underground, which would be absurdly expensive.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

My issue with that is that it ignores the markets that are important for Abbotsford workers–Langley and Surrey. That's why I think any commuter rail from there needs to be an RER line mirroring the Expo Line, because it will get people to where they need to go, not just downtown.

But that won't happen until downtown Surrey hits critical mass and the demand justifies the expense of an express route. They need to build rapid transit from Langley first.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by officedweller

But that won't happen until downtown Surrey hits critical mass and the demand justifies the expense of an express route. They need to build rapid transit from Langley first.

Exactly, the Expo Line extension obviously comes first. But I think bus routes to a Langley Centre SkyTrain station and to Lougheed Town Centre Station will be enough for a long time. Even today with downtown Surrey not being much of anything there are a lot more workers from Abbotsford working there than downtown. Basically what I'm saying is that if Abbotsford isn't going to be connected to downtown through Surrey by commuter rail, it wouldn't be worth the money to connect it by the Mission line.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

A new bridge would really help the Cascades train from Portland as well.

The big issue with any rail bridge is that marine traffic is the senior mode and has priority - so for reliable service you have to build it high like the Patullo. That's very difficult to do when the maximum grade for rail is typically only 2%.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The big issue with any rail bridge is that marine traffic is the senior mode and has priority - so for reliable service you have to build it high like the Patullo. That's very difficult to do when the maximum grade for rail is typically only 2%.

Yep. There really aren't any easy solutions to rail infrastructure in Vancouver.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Basically what I'm saying is that if Abbotsford isn't going to be connected to downtown through Surrey by commuter rail, it wouldn't be worth the money to connect it by the Mission line.

Yeah, Abbotsford to Mission would be a stop-gap measure until demand through Surrey warrants a separate line.

I eventually see 2 spoke configurations - one on Downtown Vancouver, the other on downtown Surrey - but that's waaay off in the future.

[swimmer_spe]

As a stop gap south of the Fraser, buy up the land near the Scott Road Station and tern it into a terminal. Build a 4 track high level rail bridge to replace the swing bridge. 2 tracks for passenger, 2 tracks for freight. Build 7-8km of track to the Tsawwassen Ferry terminal.

Run the three lines (Ferry, Abbotsford, White Rock) to Scott Road and eventually to Waterfront.

Problem solved. Expensive, but you would have a world class commuter system.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

As a stop gap south of the Fraser, buy up the land near the Scott Road Station and tern it into a terminal. Build a 4 track high level rail bridge to replace the swing bridge. 2 tracks for passenger, 2 tracks for freight. Build 7-8km of track to the Tsawwassen Ferry terminal.

Run the three lines (Ferry, Abbotsford, White Rock) to Scott Road and eventually to Waterfront.

Problem solved. Expensive, but you would have a world class commuter system.

It could work but I really just don't see it as a priority right now or for a long time.

[ssiguy]

The problem with extending the SkyTrain is that it is expensive for the number of people served. Also by extending the SkyTrain you are adding people onto an already busy line. The line will also be too far to go to downtown............you would be taking the rapid out of rapid transit.

It's for these reasons that cities don't build huge single line routes. There is a point where long lines no longer make monetary or transit sense and why cities for longer trips create commuter and eventually suburban rail. The difference between the two is that commuter rail is precisely that...........for commuters using the system for basically just rush hour travel while suburban rail runs all day, both ways, several times an hour..........it's dependable longer distance travel.

The most logical line is Waterfront to Broadway and to Surrey/Langley via the old rail bridge. It would offer a fast route to both downtown and the Broadway Corridor/UBC and have SkyTrain connections at Scott Road and Sapperton station.

The line would certainly have to be twinned and eventually electrified and mostly grade separated but the benefits of suburban rail is that those improvements can be brought in over time.

Vancouver will continue to sprawl east as people seek affordable accommodation and Vancouver's unique "cone" shape makes the lines ridership potential much higher. Rapid transit is great for city travel but when you get out to the sprawling burbs commuter and eventually suburban rail makes the most sense.

BTW........not meaning to be too particular but the system in Toronto is "GO" not "Go". GO is short for Government of Ontario.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem with extending the SkyTrain is that it is expensive for the number of people served. Also by extending the SkyTrain you are adding people onto an already busy line. The line will also be too far to go to downtown............you would be taking the rapid out of rapid transit.

It's for these reasons that cities don't build huge single line routes. There is a point where long lines no longer make monetary or transit sense and why cities for longer trips create commuter and eventually suburban rail. The difference between the two is that commuter rail is precisely that...........for commuters using the system for basically just rush hour travel while suburban rail runs all day, both ways, several times an hour..........it's dependable longer distance travel.

The most logical line is Waterfront to Broadway and to Surrey/Langley via the old rail bridge. It would offer a fast route to both downtown and the Broadway Corridor/UBC and have SkyTrain connections at Scott Road and Sapperton station.

The line would certainly have to be twinned and eventually electrified and mostly grade separated but the benefits of suburban rail is that those improvements can be brought in over time.

Vancouver will continue to sprawl east as people seek affordable accommodation and Vancouver's unique "cone" shape makes the lines ridership potential much higher. Rapid transit is great for city travel but when you get out to the sprawling burbs commuter and eventually suburban rail makes the most sense.

BTW........not meaning to be too particular but the system in Toronto is "GO" not "Go". GO is short for Government of Ontario.

You have some very good points.

Some of GO is suburban rail, in which they run all day both ways. Lakeshore East and West lines rune every 30 minutes from 5am to 10pm. The rest only run commuter service.

Some of AMT lines also are run sort of like suburban rail. Deux-Montagnes line runs hourly service outside of the rush hour. Candiac and Saint-Jerome lines run a couple throughout the day. The other 3 AMT lines do not

GO and AMT have steadily expanded from a single line to multiple lines. The ones that could run throughout the day and on weekends have been expanded.

The TTC has many subway stops that connect to GO trains.

The STM has many Metro stops as well that connect to the AMT.

Once the Evergreen line opens, the WCE will finally have that.

With the current trackage in the Greater Vancouver area, the WCE expansion could be done.

1) WCE - regular weekday express between Coquitlam Centre and Waterfront. This should be done within the next year. There would not be much physical work done, just personnel changes.

2) Open a line from Waterfront to Abbotsford. Stops would include: Waterfront Skytrain station, Commercial-Broadway Skytrain Station, Sperling-Burnaby Lake Station, Sapperton Skytrain station, Scott Road Skytrain, South Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford. The Line between the Skytrains could be priced slightly higher than the Skytrain and be used as an express. This should be done within 5 years.

3) A line from Horseshoe Bay Terminal to Waterfront. The line would arrive at the ferry terminal for 6am daily. The last train to Waterfront should leave at 10pm. This line could be run continuous throughout the day. Lonsdale Quay could be an intermediate station. This would almost make the seabus redundant. This line also should be done within 5 years.

4) A line from White Rock to Waterfront with intermediate stops at Commercial-Broadway Skytrain Station, Sperling-Burnaby Lake Station, Sapperton Skytrain station, and Scott Road Skytrain station. Again, from Scott Road to Waterfront, have it an express train This line should be done within 5-10 years

5) A line built on new track from Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal to Waterfront. This would require 7-8km of new track. Besides the ferry terminal, the line would include the same common stops (Commercial-Broadway Skytrain Station, Sperling-Burnaby Lake Station, Sapperton Skytrain station, Scott Road Skytrain,). When this line gets built, the other lines running the common stops as express during the day could be reduced as a cost saving measure. This line should be done by 10 years.

Within 10 years, the swing bridge would need to be replaced to keep up with the service schedule. The swing bridge could be set up on a schedule that would allow trains to maintain a schedule. This is done on some other bridges. The swing bridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little...t_Swing_Bridge) is scheduled to open certain times of the day.

So, in short, within 10 years, the WCE could expand to 5 lines with some express suburban rail.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem with extending the SkyTrain is that it is expensive for the number of people served. Also by extending the SkyTrain you are adding people onto an already busy line. The line will also be too far to go to downtown............you would be taking the rapid out of rapid transit.

It's for these reasons that cities don't build huge single line routes. There is a point where long lines no longer make monetary or transit sense and why cities for longer trips create commuter and eventually suburban rail. The difference between the two is that commuter rail is precisely that...........for commuters using the system for basically just rush hour travel while suburban rail runs all day, both ways, several times an hour..........it's dependable longer distance travel.

The most logical line is Waterfront to Broadway and to Surrey/Langley via the old rail bridge. It would offer a fast route to both downtown and the Broadway Corridor/UBC and have SkyTrain connections at Scott Road and Sapperton station.

The line would certainly have to be twinned and eventually electrified and mostly grade separated but the benefits of suburban rail is that those improvements can be brought in over time.

Vancouver will continue to sprawl east as people seek affordable accommodation and Vancouver's unique "cone" shape makes the lines ridership potential much higher. Rapid transit is great for city travel but when you get out to the sprawling burbs commuter and eventually suburban rail makes the most sense.

BTW........not meaning to be too particular but the system in Toronto is "GO" not "Go". GO is short for Government of Ontario.

The difference is that Vancouver is very multi-nodal, so while a trip downtown might take a while, a trip to Metrotown is still quite possible for example, not to mention to all the new office space being built in downtown Surrey. Plus, it already takes about an hour in the best of times to drive from Langley Centre to downtown which is exactly how long the Expo Line will take when extended there. An express train to the Valley is definitely one of my transit fantasies here, but it will be a long time before it's really necessary.