[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by spaustin

The political battles fought over some proposals undoubtedly has an impact, however, more often than not, council says yes. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the lack of development Downtown has had more to do with basic market conditions then anything else. If the market were there, Internaional Place would have gone ahead ages ago since it has been approved for years. Blaming the Heritage Trust is easy, but that doesn't make it so.

Spaustin, I am not sure if you have lived in other cities. Taking years to get a development approved and through appeals isn't the way that it works in most cities. Cities that grow are the ones that are pro-active and encourage growth. Basic market conditions can be changed; in other words just because the province of Nova Scotia and the Halifax area has been behind in growth in the past it doesn't have to always be that way. I am not sure of your perspective - maybe you don't want growth - if that is the case then that is your right. However, the Halifax area can be promoted and grow with the right public officials and the elimination of red tape.

Also, you have mentioned the International Place (IP) in the past. They are not ready to proceed but this one is. The International Place not proceeding doesn't make a case for this one not to proceed. And in any case, you can use this same argument against residential being built at that site - right now Salter Street and United Gulf residential developments are on hold.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Could you provide a source for this? When you say the convention centre, are you indicating the entire complex (including the hotel and office buildings). Otherwise, if you are stating that the HRM/Provincial/Federal governments are paying for the entire land cost then you must have very good inside information since these details have not been worked out - the detailed cost analysis is still ongoing. And in any case, if the three levels of government build a convention centre alone, then most likely the land cost will not be free (unless it is on government property). There was a Request for Proposals and this one was chosen as the best option. I would think that the HRM must have had a reason to select this one - likely because it was the lowest priced option. If another site had of been selected would you still be opposed? It seems like a common problem in the HRM - oppose everything.



This is changing, banks want to lend money and from what I have heard there is money being invested in Canada. Canada is considered to be a safer location than the US.

Well i know for a fact that the lending for hotels hasn't changed, i recently worked on funding for one and that is the situation still. Canada or not doesn't make a difference.

As for the land costs, look at the plans. The centre spans over two blocks, therefore the foundations for the upper towers will be incorporated into it.

As for another site, yes, i have been steadfast on my position that this site was the worse of the 6 proposed. Hardman's proposal was far better then this, in my opinion. And at least with the Hardman on the land was owned by the city and it gave the city to amortize the costs of tearing down the interchange within the development costs.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Spaustin, I am not sure if you have lived in other cities. Taking years to get a development approved and through appeals isn't the way that it works in most cities. Cities that grow are the ones that are pro-active and encourage growth. Basic market conditions can be changed; in other words just because the province of Nova Scotia and the Halifax area has been behind in growth in the past it doesn't have to always be that way. I am not sure of you perspective - maybe you don't want growth - if that is the case then that is your right. However, the Halifax area can be promoted and grow with the right public officials and the elimination of red tape.

Also, you have mentioned the International Place (IP) in the past. They are not ready to proceed but this one is. The International Place not proceeding doesn't make a case for this one not to proceed. And in any case, you can use this same argument against residential being built at that site - right now Salter Street and United Gulf residential developments are on hold.

Spautin is correct, Heritage trust aren't the only ones to blame on the lack of development downtown. They do however require to sidelined and taken out of the process of approval.

The more significant reason for the lack of downtown development is that the rates charged for space (office) downtown have been below the economic rate required for new buildings. Therefore to be economically feasible to build. Since the early 90's (when purdys II came online and flooded the market) the market has been trying to fill the supply. It is only today are the rates and vacancy are close enough to build. Coupled with this the global trend of suburban office parks ate into downtown demand, however this is a bit of a myth as many of the companies that chose to head to the suburbs didn't wish to be downtown anyhow.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

As for the land costs, look at the plans. The centre spans over two blocks, therefore the foundations for the upper towers will be incorporated into it.

Yes but how does that prove that if the convention cost is $100 million and the office/hotel is $200 million that the entire land cost of $15 million (that you stated) is included in the convention centre. How do you know that $5 million hasn't been included in the convention centre cost and $10 million in the privately financed office/hotel. These are the cost details that haven't been completely.

As for another site, yes, i have been steadfast on my position that this site was the worse of the 6 proposed. Hardman's proposal was far better then this, in my opinion. And at least with the Hardman on the land was owned by the city and it gave the city to amortize the costs of tearing down the interchange within the development costs.

Amortise the cost means that the municipality would pay it back over time with interest. The HRM would still be paying to tear it down. And in fact this is a subsidy - the land would be free to the Hardman group (especially if they included office and hotel space - would this be fair to other developers?). Personally, I would like to see the interchange torn down but there are other important facts that we don't have, for example, how many years would the convention centre have been delayed if this option were selected. Tearing down the interchange is going to take a considerable amount of time. Also, there is possibly another 20-30 years life in the interchange and it probably won't be torn down until then.

I haven't seen the plans for the Hardman proposal - is it on the internet somewhere?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

The more significant reason for the lack of downtown development is that the rates charged for space (office) downtown have been below the economic rate required for new buildings. Therefore to be economically feasible to build. Since the early 90's (when purdys II came online and flooded the market) the market has been trying to fill the supply. It is only today are the rates and vacancy are close enough to build. Coupled with this the global trend of suburban office parks ate into downtown demand, however this is a bit of a myth as many of the companies that chose to head to the suburbs didn't wish to be downtown anyhow.

From what I have read, this has also happened in Calgary in the past (and now) - an oversupply of office space (especially in the late 80's when some towers had only a couple of people on some floors). Because of a booming economy Calgary at the time, it was able to recover more quickly than Halifax. It was a couple factors that caused an oversupply in Halifax, the Purdy's Wharf development along with a recession and military downsizing in the early 90's. Halifax has seen fairly strong growth in the past 10 years, so I prefer to be optimistic and think that it will continue.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by sdm

subsidizing a development is still the same regardless of country

That wasn't the implication... certain type of industries cluster here in Halifax due to capital intensive (i.e. CCG, DFO) departments plus the concentration of healthcare and universities.

Typically these types of departments/institutions require procurement from the private sector. This drives alot of conventions coming out here.

And actually you are completely wrong if you think that "subsidizing a development is still the same regardless of country". See: China

[someone123]

Yes, fundamentally there was no construction because the cost to build was higher than the return for office downtown, but years of appeals add directly to the cost and add significantly to risk. Suburban development doesn't have this issue and so the downtown is uncompetitive.

Something else to consider is that there was plenty of demand for condos and hotel downtown a few years ago. United Gulf and the Alexander ran into huge problems mostly due to obstructionists.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yes, fundamentally there was no construction because the cost to build was higher than the return for office downtown, but years of appeals add directly to the cost and add significantly to risk. Suburban development doesn't have this issue and so the downtown is uncompetitive.

Something else to consider is that there was plenty of demand for condos and hotel downtown a few years ago. United Gulf and the Alexander ran into huge problems mostly due to obstructionists.

Agreed, obstruction came in the form of appeals mostly in the residential and hotel sector developments. There really hadn't been an office tower proposed till Waterside Centre, which again was appealled. But as someone has stated, international place has been approved for years

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

From what I have read, this has also happened in Calgary in the past (and now) - an oversupply of office space (especially in the late 80's when some towers had only a couple of people on some floors). Because of a booming economy Calgary at the time, it was able to recover more quickly than Halifax. It was a couple factors that caused an oversupply in Halifax, the Purdy's Wharf development along with a recession and military downsizing in the early 90's. Halifax has seen fairly strong growth in the past 10 years, so I prefer to be optimistic and think that it will continue.

Calgary was able to recover by attracting most of the main offices of the oil companies; so now it's become a game of who can have the more prestigious office space. So it's become a leap frog game as the oil companies have grown bigger and bigger.

I think Encana will be in the lead once the Bow is finished - which is mid next year. But right now Suncor (IMO) is in first place with it's tower (which oddly enough is one block East of the Bow Tower Site).

The difficulty facing Calgary right now will be the glut of Condos in the downtown core. Because our economy is tied so much to oil/gas development, when people stopped moving here - many condo projects just stopped. Added to this were the layoffs.

Once the condo glut is gone, I think you'll see office towers go back up too - because many of the major oil and gas players (and their major support companies) want the prestige offices in downtown, where as the smaller players can't afford it. One exception to that was the recent decision by Bell to move out to the burbs - that one surprised me given their really nice building in downtown Vancouver.

For Halifax - i see the office situation changing in the next 10 years if oil spikes again. With the wealth of opportunities off shore (for both NS and NF); I see Halifax being the winner for the most part. Most oil companies that have invested (or are planning - from what I hear through friends in those companies) are already looking at the best place to setup regional offices. I suspect, that 9 times out of 10 they will do it in HRM because the transportation infrastructure, housing and amenities are all there - where as in NF they aren't as well established. Especially if these companies have US connections - the flight options (for example) will be easier to Halifax, than SJ's.

But I think this convention centre will tie back to the economic development opportunities quite well - because if resources do create economic spin offs; the convention centre could deal with many conferences related to off shore oil development.

On another note; the suport petition appears to now be about double that of the heritage trust and save the view's.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

For Halifax - i see the office situation changing in the next 10 years if oil spikes again. With the wealth of opportunities off shore (for both NS and NF); I see Halifax being the winner for the most part. Most oil companies that have invested (or are planning - from what I hear through friends in those companies) are already looking at the best place to setup regional offices. I suspect, that 9 times out of 10 they will do it in HRM because the transportation infrastructure, housing and amenities are all there - where as in NF they aren't as well established. Especially if these companies have US connections - the flight options (for example) will be easier to Halifax, than SJ's.

But I think this convention centre will tie back to the economic development opportunities quite well - because if resources do create economic spin offs; the convention centre could deal with many conferences related to off shore oil development.

On another note; the suport petition appears to now be about double that of the heritage trust and save the view's.

This is a good point, Halifax is establishing US and international flight connections which will position it better for future growth. Also, because of the increasing population it is reaching a critical mass (ignore the cliche) whereby it is gaining some national and international exposure. Also with its universities it is becoming an internationally known research centre. This Nova Centre is an important step in the right direction. The next major step will be when the overall attitude changes to one of expecting great things to happen in Halifax (as opposed to being surprised when some great things happens in Halifax).

The support for the convention centre has been great. I hope that the public officials will take notice.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by sdm

Agreed, obstruction came in the form of appeals mostly in the residential and hotel sector developments. There really hadn't been an office tower proposed till Waterside Centre, which again was appealled. But as someone has stated, international place has been approved for years

Well I could also see the delay effectively killing quick projects. Think of RIM, for example. If they had tried to build downtown it would have been 2-4 years of delays. I'm guessing that was part of the reason they opted to go with Hammonds Plains.

Similarly I'd expect some bias against small projects downtown. It's worth hiring a lawyer and going through 2-4 years of appeals for an office tower, but what if you're just looking on adding a few floors to a building for your company? Suddenly you don't have the space and you're spending a significant amount of extra money. Again, it's just not worth it for those companies to try to operate downtown when they can have a custom building completed in Burnside or Bayers Lake in months.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This is a good point, Halifax is establishing US and international flight connections which will position it better for future growth. Also, because of the increasing population it is reaching a critical mass (ignore the cliche) whereby it is gaining some national and international exposure. Also with its universities it is becoming an internationally known research centre. This Nova Centre is an important step in the right direction. The next major step will be when the overall attitude changes to one of expecting great things to happen in Halifax (as opposed to being surprised when some great things happens in Halifax).

The support for the convention centre has been great. I hope that the public officials will take notice.

The interesting thing for the population will be if a critical mass can be maintained with the babyboomers retiring. I'm hoping that HRM can make it to at least 500,000 - but I'm worried if the numbers will drop off once we see the boomers retire.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This is a good point, Halifax is establishing US and international flight connections which will position it better for future growth. Also, because of the increasing population it is reaching a critical mass (ignore the cliche) whereby it is gaining some national and international exposure. Also with its universities it is becoming an internationally known research centre. This Nova Centre is an important step in the right direction. The next major step will be when the overall attitude changes to one of expecting great things to happen in Halifax (as opposed to being surprised when some great things happens in Halifax).

The support for the convention centre has been great. I hope that the public officials will take notice.

This doesn't really matter much as it has not been used as an argument for the convention centre, but just to note - while Halifax has a large number of universities, it does not have a reputation as a research centre. Only Dalhousie can compete as a research institute, and its position has dropped in the last decade as funding to universities in Nova Scotia has been repeatedly slashed. Only in certain areas of medicine is Dalhousie really operating at an international scale. Otherwise, Dalhousie does not register internationally, and has continuously slipped in position in Canada.

Also, rarely would an academic conference be held at a convention centre - if this is what you are suggesting - due to a number of reasons, including cost. I just think it is important that we don't over emphasize the number of groups that may use or benefit directly from a convention centre (indirectly is another story). In the end, it is a specialized program for a structure most suited for events and organizations with a lot of money and attendees/companies willing/able to pay.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by planarchy

This doesn't really matter much as it has not been used as an argument for the convention centre, but just to note - while Halifax has a large number of universities, it does not have a reputation as a research centre. Only Dalhousie can compete as a research institute, and its position has dropped in the last decade as funding to universities in Nova Scotia has been repeatedly slashed. Only in certain areas of medicine is Dalhousie really operating at an international scale. Otherwise, Dalhousie does not register internationally, and has continuously slipped in position in Canada.

Also, rarely would an academic conference be held at a convention centre - if this is what you are suggesting - due to a number of reasons, including cost. I just think it is important that we don't over emphasize the number of groups that may use or benefit directly from a convention centre (indirectly is another story). In the end, it is a specialized program for a structure most suited for events and organizations with a lot of money and attendees/companies willing/able to pay.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by planarchy

This doesn't really matter much as it has not been used as an argument for the convention centre, but just to note - while Halifax has a large number of universities, it does not have a reputation as a research centre. Only Dalhousie can compete as a research institute, and its position has dropped in the last decade as funding to universities in Nova Scotia has been repeatedly slashed. Only in certain areas of medicine is Dalhousie really operating at an international scale. Otherwise, Dalhousie does not register internationally, and has continuously slipped in position in Canada.

Also, rarely would an academic conference be held at a convention centre - if this is what you are suggesting - due to a number of reasons, including cost. I just think it is important that we don't over emphasize the number of groups that may use or benefit directly from a convention centre (indirectly is another story). In the end, it is a specialized program for a structure most suited for events and organizations with a lot of money and attendees/companies willing/able to pay.

Seems like an overly negative view.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

Seems like an overly negative view.

Not a negative view, but a more realistic view. The universities are fundamental to Halifax and NS economy, and while they bring in students from away, they are not overly research driven, and seldom host international conferences. That's all. I just want to point out that, while there may be many reasons to support this project in Halifax, this can't really be considered one of them.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I don't even know how to respond to this.

I think that what Planarchy is trying to say (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that there are more than a few concepts that would support (or not) this conference centre from an economic perspective.

Now IMO I think the international flight connections is a great start - anything is helpful, but I don't remember ever attending a student conference at a convention centre unless it was attached to something bigger (like an Engineer's or Architects Association for example) - so they typically occur on campus.

But I don't know if I share the grim view about the universities - certainly the cuts have hurt, but I don't get the impression (at least from out here in Alberta) that they're research rank has slipped - certainly their stature in terms of school to go too may have; but still remains high.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Not a negative view, but a more realistic view. The universities are fundamental to Halifax and NS economy, and while they bring in students from away, they are not overly research driven, and seldom host international conferences. That's all. I just want to point out that, while there may be many reasons to support this project in Halifax, this can't really be considered one of them.

When I left for Alberta, I know SMU was pushing a lot more research with it's faculty.

Granted, everyone always saw smu as just a glorified high school compared to Dal, so I'm not going to say much about it - other than I remember that waas the push when I left.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

When I left for Alberta, I know SMU was pushing a lot more research with it's faculty.

Granted, everyone always saw smu as just a glorified high school compared to Dal, so I'm not going to say much about it - other than I remember that waas the push when I left.

I'm not talking about undergraduate or post-graduate program reputation and am not in any way putting Dalhousie or any other school down. They have many programs that are highly regarded across Canada. I'm strictly speaking about their position as an international research hub, as suggested by Fenwick. I only want to clarify that they (Dalhousie), except for a few specific areas, are not generally leaders in research. In Canada, they are eclipsed by many, big and small (from UofT to UVic), and internationally, few are familiar with Dal as a university. Again this is really insignificant to the arguments for the convention centre, I just wanted to point out that Dal is probably not going to be a regular client to a new convention centre.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Now IMO I think the international flight connections is a great start - anything is helpful, but I don't remember ever attending a student conference at a convention centre unless it was attached to something bigger (like an Engineer's or Architects Association for example) - so they typically occur on campus.

Now I am going to negative! International flights from Halifax suck. If you frequently travel internationally for business you are lucky to even get to London without first flying to Montreal or Toronto, then back over Halifax. There are direct flights to London, but they are few and far between. Schedules on other airlines may be ok for tourist travel, but do not work for work - long layovers, frequently changed flights, etc. For example, traveling to Amsterdam should take about 6-8 hours, but unless you book months in advance, it can be hard to get travel time down to less than 15 hours gate-to-gate. I agree that improving this can help a lot in making Halifax a more attractive city for conferences/business in general, but there is a long way to go.