The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[CdnEh]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

That's true, but who is going to pay for it? City has no money and it's not really private industry's problem...and even if it was, it's not as if they'd be willing to fork over copious amounts of money for city infrastructure that doesn't involve their own trucking. It almost feels as though it was planned ahead of time...get an overpass built so the trucking can go directly from the source to highway in either direction without having to deal with train-held traffic.

And yes, the tracks go under the overpass connecting Russell and the highway, mostly the overpass dealing with eastbound traffic exiting onto Russell.

Would any of the responsibility fall on NB Southern Railway, since it's their infrastructure, or is all the city's problem?

[kwajo]

Municipalities are responsible for all level crossings, so maybe it is fair to assume that any changes would have to be initiated by the city itself?

[kwajo]

Since we're talking about Long Wharf again, let's dig up this blast from the past, just for fun:

[dhottawa729]

Only issue I have with public investment on long wharf is that we won't get a free cruise terminal out of it as the Irving's had proposed. So much prime real estate in the city... It baffles me that the private sector doesn't buy it up.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

It baffles me that the private sector doesn't buy it up.

After the Irving HQ proposal fell through (because the 2nd refinery didn't happen) the City opened up the area at Long Wharf for tenders and they received a grand total of zero. I don't think it's an issue with a lack of interest so much as it is a lack of private businesses around who'd be willing to put the money down at that area. How many of the developments in Saint John right now are private?

We already have two cruise terminals..do we really need a third?

[cdnguys]

I'm totally against a fourplex on Long Wharf. I think it's incredibly shortsighted considering what we could eventually have there. Rinks are zero density sprawling complexes that don't add to the tax base.

I picture a malecon with 4 to 6 story brick and/or stone apartment buildings facing the water with the street and parking in behind. For example, Amsterdam

[mylesmalley]

I'm inclined to agree about Long Wharf. The four-plex in Moncton takes up an absolutely massive amount of land when you include parking. You might have the room at Long Wharf, but I think it would be better to wait for more high-density developments to happen there-even if it takes a while. Why not look at further down, like where Lantic Sugar used to be? IIRC, that's a pretty big piece of land in its own right, and that end of town could use some investment.

[CdnEh]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

I'm totally against a fourplex on Long Wharf. I think it's incredibly shortsighted considering what we could eventually have there. Rinks are zero density sprawling complexes that don't add to the tax base.

As opposed to the big patch of concrete and asphalt there is now? There is zero interest in that site from any private entities.

[mylesmalley]

It'll just end up as Saint John's version of the Rogers call centre in Moncton. Nice thing to have in town, but a colossal waste of space where it gets put. It filled an otherwise empty piece of property, but it will tie the lot up for 50 years and make any potential developments that much more difficult.

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

It'll just end up as Saint John's version of the Rogers call centre in Moncton. Nice thing to have in town, but a colossal waste of space where it gets put. It filled an otherwise empty piece of property, but it will tie the lot up for 50 years and make any potential developments that much more difficult.

Thanks Myles - completely agree with you. While there may be no commercial interest at the moment I personally would not want us to rush into a low/no tax generating structure that will effectively tie up the sight for my lifetime. Now, that being said, I do agree that we cannot wait forever for something that may never happen....

[JHikka]

Hey, if you can find private investors that are willing to build there, then by all means. You can call me when it happens when i'm on my yacht in BVI when i'm retired.

Ok, a little bit of an exaggeration, but as has been said it's been open to tenders for years and nobody stepped forward. I agree about it not being the most suitable site, but as we had discussed in this thread a few pages back, where else are you going to build it (outside of the Lantic Site)? The city is going to need one eventually and there is nowhere to build it without creating even more sprawl than we currently have. There's no way the city would build it out in Baxter's Corner or Acamac or anywhere like that. So, where else, if not Long Wharf? Are you willing to tear down existing structures? Willing to move people from their homes?

[Helladog]

TRAINS...

I agree the crossing at Torn Ave has reached a point where something needs to be done. I waited for a half hour while two trains went through and some switching was being done, resulting in cars and engines just sitting in the middle of traffic. Oh yeah, it was "rush hour".

FORT-PLEX...

I agree that is a bad use of space uptown. Sure, no one wants it right now, so does that mean you should waste it? Wait until the time is right and develop it properly, otherwise you will have something similar to what you have at Agar Place- a waste of good real estate for years to come, but worse due to it being on the water.

Also...

I've heard recreational facilities are a draw to young families, but as a person who has never played ice hockey (street hockey maybe), I find it hard to see how a city can ask taxpayers to foot such a large bill for something that will be used by a minority of the population. Just saying. I don't have enough facts to make a case...just a point.

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by Helladog

TRAINS...

I agree the crossing at Torn Ave has reached a point where something needs to be done. I waited for a half hour while two trains went through and some switching was being done, resulting in cars and engines just sitting in the middle of traffic. Oh yeah, it was "rush hour".

FORT-PLEX...

I agree that is a bad use of space uptown. Sure, no one wants it right now, so does that mean you should waste it? Wait until the time is right and develop it properly, otherwise you will have something similar to what you have at Agar Place- a waste of good real estate for years to come, but worse due to it being on the water.

Also...

I've heard recreational facilities are a draw to young families, but as a person who has never played ice hockey (street hockey maybe), I find it hard to see how a city can ask taxpayers to foot such a large bill for something that will be used by a minority of the population. Just saying. I don't have enough facts to make a case...just a point.

There are at least two reports also outlining how Saint John doesn't need to invest in that much ice, we need more diversified recreational facilities and higher quality, not quantity.

[MonctonRad]

A four plex isn't just a waste of tax dollars. It can be a revenue generator. Multi pad arenas are very popular for tournaments.

Events like "The Monctonian" in Moncton can attract dozens of teams from around the region, which can fill up hundreds of hotel rooms, and this is during the middle of the winter when the hotels are otherwise hurting.

This is important stuff. Sports tourism should not be ignored. Hotel occupancy in Moncton last year actually was up by 2%, while most other jurisdictions in the region experienced a decrease.

Usually for a tournament, it just isn't the players coming to the city, but also the parents and siblings too. This is good for the overall economy including the malls and restaurants. Sports tourism should not be ignored.

I have no strong feelings about where you should build the complex although it should be central, and convenient to hotels and shopping. If not downtown, then it probably should be somewhere near McAllister Place.

[Ire Narissis]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I have no strong feelings about where you should build the complex although it should be central, and convenient to hotels and shopping. If not downtown, then it probably should be somewhere near McAllister Place.

So it can sink into the swamp too! That area is like the castle in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ire Narissis

So it can sink into the swamp too! That area is like the castle in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Castle Stalker! I've actually seen that castle, it's on the west coast of Scotland between Oban and Fort William. A neat place.

Note I said near McAllister. That doesn't necessarily mean on the floodplain.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I have no strong feelings about where you should build the complex although it should be central, and convenient to hotels and shopping. If not downtown, then it probably should be somewhere near McAllister Place.

I'll echo Ire's sentiment. Not only is that a swamp, but it's a swamp below sea level. Talk about just throwing money away.

Originally Posted by kwajo

There are at least two reports also outlining how Saint John doesn't need to invest in that much ice, we need more diversified recreational facilities and higher quality, not quantity.

Do you have those reports on hand? I'd like to read them.
As well, a fourplex would provide for diversified recreational facilities as they could be used in the summer for indoor sports if built correctly. Presumably if a fourplex were to be built two of the civic rinks would be shut down (presumably Belyea and Gorman?) to compensate for the overabundance in ice. With the money that's recently been put into these civic arenas in the past few years they may not necessitate being shut down until 2017 or 2018 at the earliest.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Note I said near McAllister. That doesn't necessarily mean on the floodplain.

There isn't anywhere near McAllister that isn't floodplain. If you move way out towards Golden Grove or southeast of Highway 1 you are then contributing to sprawl in the absolute worst of ways.

[dhottawa729]

So a fourplex would be a good use of Long Wharf during the cold winter months, but during the summer months it would sit there idle taking up a huge amount of prime urban waterfront land. An arena with a second storey water-facing lobby could double as a cruise terminal as they have opposing usage seasons. An adjacent small office and residential component to start would help keep the site active (and safe) 24 hours a day, even for users of harbour passage.

Thinking as I type, I imagine passengers arriving by cruise ship to this grand glass-fronted terminal building (actually a hockey arena in disguise), entering a lobby area with a few cafe/restaurants which overlook the ice surfaces. As passengers walk along the arena concourse to connect with harbour passage (a hockey hall of fame perhaps) they would pass various vendors. One side of the hallway would be entirely glass providing views of the uptown - on those non foggy days of course! From inside the arena during the winter months, the southern exposure of the glass-fronted building would provide plenty of feel-good sunlight on an otherwise cool fall day. From the uptown it would reflect the shimmering harbour. From the highway, passers-by would (hopefully) be intrigued with the scale and unique non-utilitarian architectural features of the building and possibly decide to enter the uptown to explore.

OK - back to reality. The building would serve a double use which compliment eachother and would provide an opportunity to build an iconic civic building that we can enjoy without being involved in legal issues (because hopefully none of us ever get to enjoy the new police HQ or law courts ). Combining sports tourism and cruise tourism into a single hub on Long Wharf may stir up enough year-round pedestrian activity to promote other development such as more hotels, restaurants, shops, condos, etc eventually making Long Wharf a hip urban neighborhood.

[JHikka]

The walls for the third floor are being put up on Technology today. I'm curious if we'll see a fourth.

[kwajo]

A few facade shots I've taken recently around town. Hoping to add more in the near future


Untitled by darkharbour, on Flickr


Untitled by darkharbour, on Flickr


Untitled by darkharbour, on Flickr


Untitled by darkharbour, on Flickr


Untitled by darkharbour, on Flickr