Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[big T]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I don't doubt that the median Quebec woman is better off than her English-Canadian counterpart.

Two observations, though:

1. Let's put things in perspective. If Taliban Afghanistan is a 0 out of 10 for women, and Iceland is a 10, then Quebec is maybe 9.4 while the ROC is maybe 9.1.

2. I'm not a big fan of back-patting articles in the media, and Quebec is increasingly pumping out more of these vis-a-vis the ROC. In this way, Quebec's relationship with the ROC reminds me of the ROC's relationship with the United States: "let's ignore our local problems - look how good we fare on select QoL metrics compared to our larger rivals!"

This kind of back patting doesn't do anyone any favours. Even if Quebec separates, I can see the ROC living rent free in Quebecois heads.

Quebec to some extent is a matriarchal society. I think this stat tracks very well. It also fully supports my personal experience -- women in business here are bold and ambitious.

And, interestingly, the same is true in blue collar, traditionally male fields like construction. I'm sure it is still challenging to be a woman in those industries, but almost certainly much easier than most everywhere else in the western world. We had a lot of work done on our condo building over the last two years (unfortunately...), and I can't remember the last time I saw a crew without at least one woman in it.

Fair to point out that this is just one very singular cherry picked metric, but that doesn't make it untrue.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I don't doubt that the median Quebec woman is better off than her English-Canadian counterpart.

Two observations, though:

1. Let's put things in perspective. If Taliban Afghanistan is a 0 out of 10 for women, and Iceland is a 10, then Quebec is maybe 9.4 while the ROC is maybe 9.1.

2. I'm not a big fan of back-patting articles in the media, and Quebec is increasingly pumping out more of these vis-a-vis the ROC. In this way, Quebec's relationship with the ROC reminds me of the ROC's relationship with the United States: "let's ignore our local problems - look how good we fare on select QoL metrics compared to our larger rivals!"

This kind of back patting doesn't do anyone any favours. Even if Quebec separates, I can see the ROC living rent free in Quebecois heads.

Especially when all those federal jobs in Gatineau move back across the river and the Outaouais folks who work in Ontario would be out of a job; plus border controls between Quebec and Ontario, New Brunswick and Newfoundland.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

2. I'm not a big fan of back-patting articles in the media, and Quebec is increasingly pumping out more of these vis-a-vis the ROC. In this way, Quebec's relationship with the ROC reminds me of the ROC's relationship with the United States: "let's ignore our local problems - look how good we fare on select QoL metrics compared to our larger rivals!"

This kind of back patting doesn't do anyone any favours. Even if Quebec separates, I can see the ROC living rent free in Quebecois heads.

Though it's a natural reaction to Anglo Canada's decades of judgemental diatribes about Quebec. There's plenty of MSM commentary from English Canada about Quebec being the poor awkward stepchild that pissed away their wealth by protecting their French identity and heritage.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I don't doubt that the median Quebec woman is better off than her English-Canadian counterpart.

Two observations, though:

1. Let's put things in perspective. If Taliban Afghanistan is a 0 out of 10 for women, and Iceland is a 10, then Quebec is maybe 9.4 while the ROC is maybe 9.1.

2. I'm not a big fan of back-patting articles in the media, and Quebec is increasingly pumping out more of these vis-a-vis the ROC. In this way, Quebec's relationship with the ROC reminds me of the ROC's relationship with the United States: "let's ignore our local problems - look how good we fare on select QoL metrics compared to our larger rivals!"

This kind of back patting doesn't do anyone any favours. Even if Quebec separates, I can see the ROC living rent free in Quebecois heads.

All correct. It's true that there is an obvious increase in this type of article coming out of Quebec.

The difference between this and the US-ROC relationship is that there always has been and continues to be lots of Quebec bashing content coming out of the ROC, whereas the US typically doesn't pay attention to Canada at all.

So if you were to make your (nonetheless correct) point to many Québécois, their reaction would likely be: "yeah, and it's about time we fired back!"

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

Fair to point out that this is just one very singular cherry picked metric, but that doesn't make it untrue.

There is actually a lot more than just one metric in Maxime's article, and there might also even be others that show that Quebec is one of the best places in the world to be a female.

(Unless the "metric" you are referring to is the broad one covering the general situation of women. Of course, there are other societal metrics where Quebec is doing worse that other places.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

Quebec to some extent is a matriarchal society. I think this stat tracks very well. It also fully supports my personal experience -- women in business here are bold and ambitious.
.

This is a really good point, Quebec has historically been mostly matriarchal (women were often alone in the home for long periods due to men being away for work in logging camps, etc.) in a way that's not entirely dissimilar to Indigenous cultures.

Of course that doesn't mean that they were exempted from the abuse and depravation common in those days, despite the relative power (maybe influence is a better term?) that they wielded within the household.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

A lot of provincial legislatures have higher percentages of women. BC is pretty closet to QC though with a left wing govt that is maybe not directly comparable. Perhaps it being closer helps. The issues may be more important to women and the ego of Federal politics less important.
.

That could be but in Quebec at least, the politics in Quebec City are roughly equally prestigious to those in Ottawa. Media coverage and visibility is probably slightly higher if you're a provincial politician than if you're a federal one here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

As for that survey. Isn't that possibly a linguistic thing? Femme is more used word in French. I can say ma femme to mean my wife no? In both groups Mother is above wife which is problematic as the family starts with the couple. I hope men are also saying Husband-Dad-Man.

Based on the original article, it sounds like the word "conjointe" is what was used for the survey questions. It covers the full range of partner relationships from married wife to live-in girlfriend (and maybe not even live-in).

Yes, "femme" is the French word for "wife" and it's definitely used all the time in Quebec, though I'd say "épouse" is more common here - whereas I think the French find the latter term charmingly antiquated.

I doubt the differences in survey results are related to semantics.

Just think of the practice and even laws when it comes to women keeping (or not) their maiden names when they get married, in Quebec vs the ROC. My Quebec-born kids have a bunch of ROCer aunts who took their husbands' names, something they find completely weird and backward.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

I suppose that's a form of quasi-sovereignty, but you're right that it's an interesting in-between.

Having experienced the Swiss system first hand, I think it kinda works for the French and German cantons because of the rough power balance, and the fact that each community is extremely connected to the larger neighbour next door that they share a language with (this is especially true for Ticino which would absolutely not exist without Milan at its doorstep). Quebec having no such thing here, I'm a bit skeptical.

I flip between whether it's the big neighbours or the actual legally enforced linguistic borders within Switzerland itself that make the language situation so stable in that country.

Or maybe it's a mix.

Though if you're a minority, having lots of people just across the border who speak the same language as you, won't necessarily ensure your survival unless you have institutional support (and ideally, protection) for your language in the place where you actually live.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Based on the original article, it sounds like the word "conjointe" is what was used for the survey questions. It covers the full range of partner relationships from married wife to live-in girlfriend (and maybe not even live-in).

Yes, "femme" is the French word for "wife" and it's definitely used all the time in Quebec, though I'd say "épouse" is more common here - whereas I think the French find the latter term charmingly antiquated.

I doubt the differences in survey results are related to semantics.

Just think of the practice and even laws when it comes to women keeping (or not) their maiden names when they get married, in Quebec vs the ROC. My Quebec-born kids have a bunch of ROCer aunts who took their husbands' names, something they find completely weird and backward.

Again a wife is a lot more aspirational title than conjoint to my ear. If you used the word spouse in English I bet it would drop off.

The name change is a legal issue. Greece also doesn't allow name changes and isn't particularly feminist. Not to say Quebec women and men aren't more feminist oriented that is possible but I think the evidence presented so far isn't proof of that.

[big T]

(Double post)

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

(Unless the "metric" you are referring to is the broad one covering the general situation of women. Of course, there are other societal metrics where Quebec is doing worse that other places.)

Yep, exactly. Women’s welfare is indeed a broad subject, and one where Quebec is doing uniformly well I think.

Though if you're a minority, having lots of people just across the border who speak the same language as you, won't necessarily ensure your survival unless you have institutional support (and ideally, protection) for your language in the place where you actually live.

I guess I see it as a necessary but not sufficient condition. Institutional framework being the other required ingredient in the mix, as you point out.
We’re still in a very different spot here, so my doubts remain.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I actually disagree with that final conclusion. Swiss-style language territoriality would also resolve this while keeping Quebec within Canada.

I would agree with replacing official bilingualism with a language territoriality model, but it would be politically difficult as both Anglo-Quebecers and Franco-Ontaeians would cry bloody murder.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by big T

Yep, exactly. Women’s welfare is indeed a broad subject, and one where Quebec is doing uniformly well I think.

Except this:

"When examining the annual rate of gender-related attempted murders of women and girls in the provinces at three different points in time (i.e., 2011, 2016 and 2021), Quebec had the highest for each of the years, a rate which consistently exceeded what was documented nationwide."- Stats Canada

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Except this:

"When examining the annual rate of gender-related attempted murders of women and girls in the provinces at three different points in time (i.e., 2011, 2016 and 2021), Quebec had the highest for each of the years, a rate which consistently exceeded what was documented nationwide."- Stats Canada

And Joyce Echaquan comes to mind.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Except this:

"When examining the annual rate of gender-related attempted murders of women and girls in the provinces at three different points in time (i.e., 2011, 2016 and 2021), Quebec had the highest for each of the years, a rate which consistently exceeded what was documented nationwide."- Stats Canada

Yes, that is one area where Quebec does rather badly. And probably has since the 60s and 70s I'd say.

Not all Quebec men have taken well to having so many uppity women in their midst.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

And Joyce Echaquan comes to mind.

Joyce Echequan's case was horrible, but she was not a murder victim.

[MolsonExport]

Relative to most other provinces, Quebec strives for a more egalitarian society. Women tend to fare better in such a society. Not a great mystery.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I would agree with replacing official bilingualism with a language territoriality model, but it would be politically difficult as both Anglo-Quebecers and Franco-Ontaeians would cry bloody murder.

Franco-Ontariens and Anglo-Quebecers are a fading political force for better or worse. The former being concentrated in relatively slow growing regions of the province of Ontario, the latter effectively forced to operate in French because one is basically unemployed otherwise.

The relative poor economic performance of the Francophone regions of Ontario has served to effectively act as an insulator for language retention for the past few decades. The downside being that those regions are older and in decline. Much in-migration is effectively Anglophone when it does exist, the out-migrants from the region effectively are forced to operate in English in other areas of the province.

Indeed, the effective language lines are hardening along political jurisdiction lines. Part of the reason things are more pleasant in Quebec-RoC relations today as opposed to the past.

About the only exception that may exist well into the late 21st century is francophone New Brunswick.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by big T

I suppose that's a form of quasi-sovereignty, but you're right that it's an interesting in-between.

Having experienced the Swiss system first hand, I think it kinda works for the French and German cantons because of the rough power balance, and the fact that each community is extremely connected to the larger neighbour next door that they share a language with (this is especially true for Ticino which would absolutely not exist without Milan at its doorstep). Quebec having no such thing here, I'm a bit skeptical.

Exactly. As I said last time we discussed this, in the Swiss analogy, French-German-Italian are North American English and Quebec is the Romansh.