Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/preclearance



https://www.dhs.gov/news/2015/05/29/...0-new-airports

"Intent". I've never seen any US personnel at European airports so far. Also notice the absence of French airports from your list. This wouldn't be well accepted here. We're not a colony, thank you! It's already bad enough that the EU meekly accepted Electronic System for Travel Authorization without retaliating. Americans understand only brute force.

[New Brisavoine]

According to their own website, US preclearance currently exists only in Canada, Ireland, UAE, and some Carribbean islands: https://www.cbp.gov/node/362206/printable/print

No airport in continental Europe or even in the UK. And the reelection of Donald Trump next November will make sure no European country authorizes US preclearance, except that 51st US state called Ireland.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Fly from Saint-Pierre Airport in SPM. Fully French staff. The US could as well not have been created yet and 1760 not happened.

Canada should just seize St. Pierre and Miquelon. It's an unacceptable affront to our sovereignty that they exist in such a colonial manner.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

"Intent". I've never seen any US personnel at European airports so far. Also notice the absence of French airports from your list. This wouldn't be well accepted here. We're not a colony, thank you! It's already bad enough that the EU meekly accepted Electronic System for Travel Authorization without retaliating. Americans understand only brute force.

France doesn't have enough destinations in the US to matter. The whole point of preclearance is to make it easier for travelers to the US. It means that you don't have to land at an American Port of Entry and then transfer to an American domestic flight. Canadian airports with preclearance offer a lot more destinations in the US than those without preclearance. There's a reason hub airports around the world try for it.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

According to their own website, US preclearance currently exists only in Canada, Ireland, UAE, and some Carribbean islands: https://www.cbp.gov/node/362206/printable/print

No airport in continental Europe or even in the UK. And the reelection of Donald Trump next November will make sure no European country authorizes US preclearance, except that 51st US state called Ireland.

Gotta love the moving goalposts and insults. We went pretty quick from "No European country would ever allow this," to "The Irish are not really European."

By the way, it's great for Aer Lingus if continental European airports don't offer preclearance. They can take that business via Dublin and Shannon. Air Canada does a lot of business connecting Europe and the US thanks to Preclearance.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Canada should just seize St. Pierre and Miquelon. It's an unacceptable affront to our sovereignty that they exist in such a colonial manner.

If you think Bloc Québécois is a pain in the ass, wait for Bloc Saint-Pierre et Miquelonais in Ottawa. You ain't seen nothing yet.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

France doesn't have enough destinations in the US to matter.

CDG Airport has the most US destinations after Heathrow. We counted all destinations from all major European airports before Covid on SSC. I doubt the ranking has changed since then. CDG also has the most passengers to the US after Heathrow (Dublin is #5 in Europe for US destinations if I remember correctly). And all of this was achieved WITHOUT preclearance. If you think travelers are going to travel via Dublin just because they have preclearance, you're living in a fantasy world.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It was already the same in the 1990s, and yet a majority of voters voted NON to independence (although allegedly the majority of Francophone voters voted OUI, but not in a large proportion enough to offset the Anglophone NON voters). So it seems some people can live with that...

It's not considered cool to bring it up so you rarely hear it mentioned, but 63% of francophones voted Oui on Oct. 30, 1995.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

CDG Airport has the most US destinations after Heathrow. We counted all destinations from all major European airports before Covid on SSC. I doubt the ranking has changed since then. CDG also has the most passengers to the US after Heathrow (Dublin is #5 in Europe for US destinations if I remember correctly). And all of this was achieved WITHOUT preclearance. If you think travelers are going to travel via Dublin just because they have preclearance, you're living in a fantasy world.

Count the number of American destinations at a major Canadian airport and you'll see why we have preclearance.

Ireland only got preclearance in 2009. There's been some rough economic times since then. I fully expect Aer Lingus to grow a large US business over time as they open up more secondary pairs with their newer long range narrowbodies. And you can bet if the EU allows it, Amsterdam would happily do it and move all kinds of American traffic from AFKL and Delta to Amsterdam. After all, the reason Paris has so many destinations is that Joint Venture with Delta. No reason that can't move to Amsterdam if preclearance ends up there.

Can we go back to you suggesting that Irish are closeted Americans for having preclearance. Is that just because they showed you to be a fool or just because they're on an island and speak English?

[thewave46]

Doesn’t the UK have juxtaposed controls at French railway stations on the Eurostar?

The greatest barrier to preclearance is the requirement for sterile US-only airport departure areas.

For Canadian airports, the sheer volume of traffic to the US (nearly 1/4 of total traffic at YYZ), clearing customs in advance makes the process of arriving in the US far more pleasant.

I prefer getting off the plane and not waiting for another hour to clear customs.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's not considered cool to bring it up so you rarely hear it mentioned, but 63% of francophones voted Oui on Oct. 30, 1995.

I am actually shocked it was that low, given that the anglophone and most allophone populations were likely near 100% federalist.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Doesn’t the UK have juxtaposed controls at French railway stations on the Eurostar?

I took the Eurotunnel. Completely forgot about this. You're right. Pretty much the same thing.

Originally Posted by thewave46

The greatest barrier to preclearance is the requirement for sterile US-only airport departure areas.

For Canadian airports, the sheer volume of traffic to the US (nearly 1/4 of total traffic at YYZ), clearing customs in advance makes the process of arriving in the US far more pleasant.

I prefer getting off the plane and not waiting for another hour to clear customs.

It's not just that. But imagine what it would be like to fly to Pittsburgh or Portland or Nashville or Palm Springs without preclearance. After you spend 1 hr in American customs, you would now have to take a local connection from a hub.

Here's an example that so many Canadians (including Quebecers) take for granted: Vegas. Air France doesn't fly there. Surprisingly, Air France doesn't even fly to the most French themed city in the US: New Orleans.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Count the number of American destinations at a major Canadian airport and you'll see why we have preclearance.

I did. Despite having US preclearance and being next door to the US, Montréal (YUL) has 2 US destinations (in the next 7 days) less than Heathrow Airport (scheduled commercial non-stop flights). Heathrow has 31 US destinations, and Montréal only 29.

Lack of US preclearance doesn't prevent Heathrow from having direct flights to places like Nashville or Pittsburgh, and Paris CDG from having direct flights to improbable places like Cincinnati.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I took the Eurotunnel. Completely forgot about this. You're right. Pretty much the same thing.

No, not the same thing, because UK was part of the EU, therefore European citizens like us. Controls beyond borders are accepted within the EU (especially within the Schengen Area where custom officers from neighboring countries can patrol within 50 km or so in the neighboring countries, and even police forces can enter neighboring countries). Accepting US or Chinese passport controls inside EU territory would be quite another matter! Especially considering the heavy-handed way US agents handle these things (whereas British police at Gare du Nord is always very courteous, discreet, and not arrogant).

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Here's an example that so many Canadians (including Quebecers) take for granted: Vegas. Air France doesn't fly there. Surprisingly, Air France doesn't even fly to the most French themed city in the US: New Orleans.

Air France flew to New Orleans before Covid. It was stopped because of Covid. As for Las Vegas, there was a Spanish low-cost company offering Paris-Las Vegas direct flights for just 99 euros one way! But it was stopped due to Covid. And despite Covid and lack of US preclearance, you still have direct flights today between Paris and Cincinnati, or Paris and Salt Lake City.

You're just trying too hard really.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I am actually shocked it was that low, given that the anglophone and most allophone populations were likely near 100% federalist.

The data isn't as good for non-francophones as anglophones and allophones are mixed together in polling, but it's estimated 97% of anglophones voted Non. Allophones are often regarded as voting exactly like anglophones, but their Non vote is estimated at 75-80%. Still massively for the Non, but not as unanimous as the anglophones.

Another thing is that Montreal francophones voted Oui in a higher proportion than the francophone average for Quebec, around 70%.

Overall though Montreal gave the Non a majority, with the anglophone and allophone vote there counter-balancing the strong Oui from francophones.

[Acajack]

Former Gatineau mayor Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin is having a successful post-political career as a columnist for La Presse.

Here he writes about Quebec women.

https://www.lapresse.ca/dialogue/chr...source%253Dlpp

A recent poll showed Quebec women self-identify in this order:

Women
Mothers
Wives

ROC women self-identify as such:

Mothers
Wives
Women

Quebec women have the 2nd highest employment rate in the world, just a fraction behind Sweden's.

They're ahead of women in the ROC on almost all metrics, including incomes.

As heads of businesses and on boards Quebec women are way ahead as well.

Only 2% of Quebec boards have no women. The Canadian average is 18%.

Just under half of National Assembly members here are women.

If Quebec were a country it would rank 10th for the political representation of women.

Canada ranks 64th.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by thewave46

For Canadian airports, the sheer volume of traffic to the US (nearly 1/4 of total traffic at YYZ), clearing customs in advance makes the process of arriving in the US far more pleasant.

I prefer getting off the plane and not waiting for another hour to clear customs.

Indeed. Pre-clearances is great, and I don't think I've spent more than 15 minutes in line - usually a lot less. 99% of the time they check my passport, ask where I'm going and that's it. You can also enter all your detail in advance through the Mobile Passport Control app and skip most of the line. Saves a huge amount of time, particularly if you don't have a checked bag. They're adding it at YTZ this summer I believe which will save a ton of time considering the number of flights to NYC (Newark), Chicago, Boston and Washington.

The most onerous airport controls I've experienced have been Jeddah (just... don't) followed by Heathrow and Frankfurt. Wasn't really expecting the last two but it was pretty bad.

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I actually disagree with that final conclusion. Swiss-style language territoriality would also resolve this while keeping Quebec within Canada.

I suppose that's a form of quasi-sovereignty, but you're right that it's an interesting in-between.

Having experienced the Swiss system first hand, I think it kinda works for the French and German cantons because of the rough power balance, and the fact that each community is extremely connected to the larger neighbour next door that they share a language with (this is especially true for Ticino which would absolutely not exist without Milan at its doorstep). Quebec having no such thing here, I'm a bit skeptical.

[big T]

Originally Posted by niwell

Indeed. Pre-clearances is great, and I don't think I've spent more than 15 minutes in line - usually a lot less. 99% of the time they check my passport, ask where I'm going and that's it. You can also enter all your detail in advance through the Mobile Passport Control app and skip most of the line. Saves a huge amount of time, particularly if you don't have a checked bag. They're adding it at YTZ this summer I believe which will save a ton of time considering the number of flights to NYC (Newark), Chicago, Boston and Washington.

The most onerous airport controls I've experienced have been Jeddah (just... don't) followed by Heathrow and Frankfurt. Wasn't really expecting the last two but it was pretty bad.

Preclearance has been excellent for Canada because of our geographic situation, where funnelling everything through a few large hubs would be a huge overhead compared to enabling thinner point to point routes. This was very true in the past when fewer US airports were designated as ports of entry with CBP staffing, or had limited hours.

Nowadays, I can only think of LGA and DCA as the really standout destinations we wouldn't be able to have without pre-clearance. Cheap flights to Mexico and the Caribbean have really pushed US low cost carriers to in turn push the US gov to open inspection facilities most everywhere that matters. But yeah, just those two probably still justify the cost on their own for Canada.

The other side of pre-clearance is general aviation, which of course is much more of a thing between Canada and US that with overseas countries.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Former Gatineau mayor Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin is having a successful post-political career as a columnist for La Presse.

Here he writes about Quebec women.

https://www.lapresse.ca/dialogue/chr...source%253Dlpp

A recent poll showed Quebec women self-identify in this order:

Women
Mothers
Wives

ROC women self-identify as such:

Mothers
Wives
Women

Quebec women have the 2nd highest employment rate in the world, just a fraction behind Sweden's.

They're ahead of women in the ROC on almost all metrics, including incomes.

As heads of businesses and on boards Quebec women are way ahead as well.

Only 2% of Quebec boards have no women. The Canadian average is 18%.

Just under half of National Assembly members here are women.

If Quebec were a country it would rank 10th for the political representation of women.

Canada ranks 64th.

I don't doubt that the median Quebec woman is better off than her English-Canadian counterpart.

Two observations, though:

1. Let's put things in perspective. If Taliban Afghanistan is a 0 out of 10 for women, and Iceland is a 10, then Quebec is maybe 9.4 while the ROC is maybe 9.1.

2. I'm not a big fan of back-patting articles in the media, and Quebec is increasingly pumping out more of these vis-a-vis the ROC. In this way, Quebec's relationship with the ROC reminds me of the ROC's relationship with the United States: "let's ignore our local problems - look how good we fare on select QoL metrics compared to our larger rivals!"

This kind of back patting doesn't do anyone any favours. Even if Quebec separates, I can see the ROC living rent free in Quebecois heads.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Former Gatineau mayor Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin is having a successful post-political career as a columnist for La Presse.

Here he writes about Quebec women.
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A recent poll showed Quebec women self-identify in this order:

Women
Mothers
Wives

ROC women self-identify as such:

Mothers
Wives
Women

Quebec women have the 2nd highest employment rate in the world, just a fraction behind Sweden's.

They're ahead of women in the ROC on almost all metrics, including incomes.

As heads of businesses and on boards Quebec women are way ahead as well.

Only 2% of Quebec boards have no women. The Canadian average is 18%.

Just under half of National Assembly members here are women.

If Quebec were a country it would rank 10th for the political representation of women.

Canada ranks 64th.

A lot of provincial legislatures have higher percentages of women. BC is pretty closet to QC though with a left wing govt that is maybe not directly comparable. Perhaps it being closer helps. The issues may be more important to women and the ego of Federal politics less important.

As for that survey. Isn't that possibly a linguistic thing? Femme is more used word in French. I can say ma femme to mean my wife no? In both groups Mother is above wife which is problematic as the family starts with the couple. I hope men are also saying Husband-Dad-Man.