Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Hopefully UTA can get that self-built track up to Pleasant View - and eventually to Brigham City. Then maybe UTA could contract with Cache Valley Transit to run an express bus route from Logan to a future Brigham City FrontRunner station just like the PC-SLC line (but without the ridiculously higher fare, of course). I imagine that would be a very popular bus route.

Why not just extend frontrunner around the mountain the Logan? Single track, trains every hour or two? You’d be surprised how many people (especially students) commute that route, especially on weekends. The route is relatively direct, the ROW is there, and would be much faster than car.

[Hatman]

My thoughts exactly about extending to Logan.

Brigham City is not an ideal place to end a 90-minute commuter train route. Logan is much better.

Brigham City Pop. = 17,900.
Logan Pop. = 50,676+ 27,679 USU students = 78,355 potential riders.
For those curious, that's 4.3x as many people as in Brigham City.

In an ideal world without political boarders the Logan extension would getting serious attention from planners. Unfortunately, Logan and Park City are separate from UTA and so we're not allowed to talk about them.

In the short term, I agree with UTA. Close the Pleasant View station for FrontRunner and replace that service with a frequent bus line. There is no purpose in paying Union Pacific good money to upgrade their signaling system just to maintain the 4 trains per day frequency currently in service, especially if UTA is planning to build their own tracks.

I hope that we can get funding for double-tracking and electrifying frontrunner before we extend it in either direction. It's one thing to say 'Let's electrify 83 miles of commuter rail" and a completely different thing to say "let's electrify 150 miles of commuter rail!" My point is that if we don't upgrade the existing line first, it will be much harder to get people to agree to upgrade at all. The extensions are already planned; they aren't going anywhere. It's the double-tracking and electrifying that are uncertain, and I'd rather remove any uncertainties first.
Just my opinion.

[bob rulz]

I agree that full electrification and double-tracking should come before anything else.

Is there an existing rail line that can be used to extend FrontRunner to Logan? I'm not familiar with rail lines in that area.

Anyway, when I talk about an express bus route, I am simply keeping things practical. Rail to Logan would be great, and it should be part of the discussion, but I think an express bus route would be much much more likely to happen, and would still be a great thing to have. And I'm not sure that Brigham City would be such a bad place to end the line. It may be a small city, but there are commuter lines that end in similarly small cities and there are certainly still people there that would use it. And maybe it would spur some development in Brigham City which is a city that really feels like it's stuck in the past despite the development of cities around it. Though people there probably like it that way.

Eventually though, yeah, rail to Logan would be great to have.

[RC14]

There is a rail ROW that runs from Brigham City to Logan entering Cache Valley from the NorthWest.

I would like to see Frontrunner stations at Honeyville and Crystal Hot Springs. The same ROW that would be used to extend Frontrunner to Brigham City, and perhaps, eventually to Logan, passes immediately behind the hot springs.

[Hatman]

Logan is totally able to be connected by rail, but it's going to have to deviate from the existing rail lines at a place called Collinston in order to avoid running through the bear river canyon. The current freight line through there is limited to 12 miles per hour as it negoticates some tight turns, a tunnel, and two big bridges. There is no good way to turn that route into a high(er) speed commuter line - it would be easier to widen I-80 through Parley's Canyon. (Hint hint)

It makes sense to follow the existing tracks from Ogden northward, making stops at
-Ogden Business Park
-Pleasant View
-Willard
-Brigham City
-Honeyville (Perhaps at the hotsprings)
-Deweyville (immediately adjacent to Tremonton)
-Collinston

At Collinston you'll need to make a hard right and follow the current route of State Road 30 over Collinston pass. That road is currently a 2-lane highway, and it will need to be upgraded someday. When that happens, leave a median wide enough for a future rail line. New Mexico did this with their commuter rail line called the Rail Runner:


Basically, FrontRunner would stay in the median of State Road 30 until reaching Logan. (That's a distance of just over 14 miles; the Rail Runner remains in the median for 12 miles, so about the same.)

I'm confident this line would work because it already worked 100 years ago. The Utah-Idaho Central interurban railroad used to run this route. While the exact route can't be rebuilt today due to the ROW becoming abandoned and built over (it's kind of curvy and we wouldn't want to rebuilt it exactly anyway), it proves that trains could make it over Collinston pass 100 years ago and thus could easily do the same thing today.

It is amazing to me that 100 years ago, these are the routes you could take on electric trains in Utah:



Now if you want to take an electric train you're limited to TRAX in Salt Lake County.

I hope we preserve ROW for future FrontRunner expansions, but I don't think it would be a good use of money to actually build these expansions now. I think it's really important that we build up the core of the FrontRunner line from Provo to Ogden (2 tracks + electric wires) in order to allow trains to run fast and frequent. You know, finish eating what's on your plate before you go get seconds.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Originally Posted by Hatman

My thoughts exactly about extending to Logan.

Brigham City is not an ideal place to end a 90-minute commuter train route. Logan is much better.

Brigham City Pop. = 17,900.
Logan Pop. = 50,676+ 27,679 USU students = 78,355 potential riders.
For those curious, that's 4.3x as many people as in Brigham City.

Actually, the Logan Metro area including its suburbs/neighboring cities is roughly 150,000. Add in USU students and you have 175,000 potential riders. 10x the amount of people in Brigham city. A lot of people don’t realize that cache valley is quite populous.

Electrify the main route between Ogden and Provo. Have the extension to Logan be diesel trains every hour or two. A branch line from Ogden. Such low frequency and long distance wouldn’t warrant electricification.

[jubguy3]

Frontrunner is one of the most successful commuter rail lines in the United States based on the ridership per mile. I would love to see UTA focus on making it more frequent and electrifying it. With 15m service, I think it would become a lot more useful to people. Getting stuck for an hour because you missed a train is incredibly unpleasant.

[grasscom]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

Frontrunner is one of the most successful commuter rail lines in the United States based on the ridership per mile.

That's because just about everyone who lives in the Salt lake, Provo, Ogden msa lives within 1-2 miles of it. That's one thing I hate about living here, we may not have a huge population comparatively, but yet the city is 1000 miles long and like 2 to 3 miles wide at many good portions.. You think the city would have wised up long time ago and built more dense projects years ago... I understand why it isn't but it doesn't mean its not annoying.

[bob rulz]

Why do people keep counting the population of USU separately from the population of Logan/Cache Valley?

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Why do people keep counting the population of USU separately from the population of Logan/Cache Valley?

Unless they stay there through the summer they aren’t considered permanent residents.

I think so... could be wrong.

[Liberty Wellsian]

I don't want to sound like too much of a hippie but has anybody toyed around with the mandelbrot set? That's how I like to think of Transit like a fractal. Bike paths are the itty bitty bit, you zoom out it looks much the same but now they're bus lines, you zoom out again and you get brt, and again light rail, and again commuter rail, and again...

That's kind of where I think Logan is(maybe). I don't think we have done that good of a job of the scale between bike paths and light rail. We have done a pretty good job in between with our Light Rail and commuter rail. Further I think there is another scale to be had. I'm not sure that trying to force Logan into the commuter rail scale an extension at the end of line is the best idea. Maybe just maybe there's room or a Logan Ogden Salt Lake Provo Payson Express.

?

[bob rulz]

College students are supposed to be counted at the location where they spend the most time, which, if they're from out of town, is going to be in the city of the university.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/03/15/college-students-count-in-the-census-but-where/
https://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2010/resid_rules/resid_rules.html#EIGHT

College students living at their parental home while attending college - Counted at their parental home.

College students living away from their parental home while attending college in the U.S. (living either on-campus or off-campus) - Counted at the on-campus or off-campus residence where they live and sleep most of the time.

College students living away from their parental home while attending college in the U.S. (living either on-campus or off-campus) but staying at their parental home while on break or vacation - Counted at the on-campus or off-campus residence where they live and sleep most of the time.

Not to mention that a good portion of people who attend Utah State probably come from Logan or Cache County anyway, so adding 27,000 or so people on top of that number is hugely inaccurate for another reason.

I'm sure some students from out-of-state count their place of residence as back home and slipped through the Census's reporting system - I'm not sure anybody can know for sure. And some students surely come from another city or county (some of those students would live in North Logan, Smithfield, Nibley, Hyrum, etc and drive to school, or even Brigham City). But most of that 27,000 should be included in Cache County's population.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

College students are supposed to be counted at the location where they spend the most time, which, if they're from out of town, is going to be in the city of the university.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/03/15/college-students-count-in-the-census-but-where/
https://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2010/resid_rules/resid_rules.html#EIGHT


Not to mention that a good portion of people who attend Utah State probably come from Logan or Cache County anyway, so adding 27,000 or so people on top of that number is hugely inaccurate for another reason.

I'm sure some students from out-of-state count their place of residence as back home and slipped through the Census's reporting system - I'm not sure anybody can know for sure. And some students surely come from another city or county (some of those students would live in North Logan, Smithfield, Nibley, Hyrum, etc and drive to school, or even Brigham City). But most of that 27,000 should be included in Cache County's population.

Gotcha. Makes sense. Regardless, that’s still 150,000 people to be served by extending front runner to Logan.

For sake of fun, let’s do some math:

As far as a good portion of USU students being from cache valley... I doubt it. The high schools in the county typically average 1200 total per graduating class. Let’s be generous and say 25% go to USU (rather than other state schools, out of state, or no college all together). Thats only 300 students (times by 4 years assuming they all graduate) Which ends up being roughly 4% of the total student body at the University.

[bob rulz]

Hmm perhaps you're right. I don't think universities publish statistics about where their students come from - maybe international students, but I doubt you could find information on who comes from out-of-state, much less out-of-county without asking them directly, and even then I'm not sure they would keep that information on-hand.

Either way, I would imagine a good chunk of that 27,000 is still counted in Cache County's Census number. Minimum safe bet, let's say 75% of it. That maybe adds a few thousand to Cache County's population. That is not an insignificant number number considering the total population, but it doesn't make a huge difference in terms of what we're talking about.

I'm not sure where the 150,000 number is coming from. Cache County's population is 120,000, plus Franklin County, Idaho is only around 13,000. So I would say, assuming some USU students aren't counted, would lead to an absolute maximum of 150,000 by my estimation, probably closer to 140,000 and that's only if you count Franklin County. But still, that's still a good-sized market to be served by a rail line and the population will only increase in the minimum 10-15 years I think they would even consider it (and probably 20-30 before it would get built). So it is probably worth it in the long-run, but I don't see it happening for a long time.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Nah, I was counting Brigham city, Tremonton, etc in that 150,000. Saying total amount of people served by the line north of Ogden. Also, isn’t Cache valley projected to be in quarter million range by 2050?

[bob rulz]

Ah ok, I didn't realize you meant the whole area north of Ogden.

And yeah, it probably is projected around that, but I always take population estimates with a grain of salt. You simply can't project future growth patterns beyond maybe a decade.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland

Electrify the main route between Ogden and Provo. Have the extension to Logan be diesel trains every hour or two. A branch line from Ogden. Such low frequency and long distance wouldn’t warrant electricification.

I'm surprised how much I like this idea. What to do with the current diesel trains when FrontRunner gets electrified and gets EMU's to run highers speeds and frequencies? In this plan, we keep all the existing equpiment and use it to run the route between Ogden and Logan. That route would be about 55 miles long, so it would need about 6-7 trainsets to operate at half-hour frequencies (peak demand) with another 2-3 trainsets being held in reserve or in maintenance. UTA could keep its Warm Springs shop configured as-is and buy their EMU's from Stadler, then let Stadler maintain and service the EMU's at their assembly plant at 5600 West. That would be very cost-effective.

I don't like the idea of a mandatory transfer at Ogden, but given the constraints of building out a full system it is an acceptable compromise. It also has the fun coincidence of being the location where historically there was a mandatory transfer between the Union Pacific and Southern Pacific railroad lines. They say history doesn't repeat, but this sure feels like more than a rhyme to me!

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

Frontrunner is one of the most successful commuter rail lines in the United States based on the ridership per mile. I would love to see UTA focus on making it more frequent and electrifying it. With 15m service, I think it would become a lot more useful to people. Getting stuck for an hour because you missed a train is incredibly unpleasant.

Amen.

The idea of any transit line is that passengers shouldn't need to memorize a schedule - you should be able to go to the station whenever it suits you and have to wait no longer than 10-15 minutes. I personally won't be at peace until we get autonomous trains arriving no more than 5 minutes apart, but until that becomes technologically practical I'll be happy to double our current frequency and get a 15 minute all-day frequency.

[jubguy3]

The existing frontrunner line has the most potential for future ridership growth. The size and shape of the wasatch front could not be more perfect... enough of a population to build one commuter rail line, but the majority of that population travels in the same general direction (north south). I am confident that future improvements to frontrunner would reap nearly the same investment that the original line had, possibly better. A 30m service with 1h off-peak and no Sunday service is perfect for people using the train to commute to their 9-5 jobs and who own a car, but a 15m service with longer hours and Sunday service would tap it those who use TRAX much the same way as me, but commute over longer distances - great for the majority of my planned commutes, and when it doesn't work out, I call a Lyft, bike, or try to carpool. This is why the provo BRT will be such a valuable addition to the UTA network. It provides service frequency beyond Trax, filling in the most critical and dense transportation needs, connecting well with the "long-haul" frontrunner system. I love your plans, hatman, but the ROI and value to the public for electrifying, upgrading, and double-tracking the existing system is far more than any east-west rail line or extension.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

I love your plans, hatman, but the ROI and value to the public for electrifying, upgrading, and double-tracking the existing system is far more than any east-west rail line or extension.

Yep. No doubt about it.

If I were emperor of UTA/UDOT (since I hope the funding will soon be the same thing), my spending would have three priority levels:

1) Free transit. Spend the money necessary to rearrange-the UTA organization away from collecting fares and towards being able to handle the large influx of non-paying passengers

2) Upgrading existing infrastructure and services. This includes double-tracking and electrifying FrontRunner, as well as making serious investments to Salt Lake Central Station so that it isn't an embarrassment to our city. Buy enough TRAX cars and upgrade the signaling system to run much higher frequencies of trains than they do now. Upgrade bus route not by building brand new 'flashy' BRT lines, but by upgrading existing bus routes to BRT routes piecemeal, like adding exclusive lanes only on 2nd South and state street while letting the buses run as regular (or express) buses in the rest of the valley. Put bus lanes only where congestion actually slows the buses - they don't need to be everywhere.
Do a few things well rather than do many things poorly. Consolidate if necessary, but get transit to the point where people trust it to be fast, frequent, and reliable.

(I might make an exception for my no-new-projects rule for the 4th south TRAX alignment since that would be crucial to increasing rail service in downtown Salt Lake, but otherwise I am totally for upgrading existing stuff before we move onto new stuff.)

3) Preserve ROW for future projects. Projects like the east-west commuter rail line(s), the TRAX extensions through Utah County, and FrontRunner to Logan. We know in the long-term that these transit lines will be necessary and that the ROW isn't going to sit empty and wait for us unless we go out and buy it and preserve it ourselves. By giving these projects a real and tangible ROW, it can influence development around future station locations even if the stations themselves won't be built for another decade or two. The important thing is to get very specific plans made and to give those plans 'teeth' by actively preserving the ROW. Otherwise they will be nothing more than colorful lines on a map that will get ignored and built-over.

I think I've reached my word limit on this forum for one day. I've got to get some real work done now.