Ottawa's Byward Market

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

I guess it'd be irresponsible to completely dismiss that possibility, but as someone who spends lots of time in SFO, I can tell you that Ottawa's problem is nowhere near as bad as theirs.

That being said, I do think the long term success of the Market hinges on decentralizing amenities/services for the homeless, which are currently concentrated in that district.

Have a look at the unbelievable unprecedented next level tent city that has formed around the Robert Guertin arena and Brewer's Creek in Gatineau this summer. SFO is closer than you think, and things are getting worse by the day!

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Have a look at the unbelievable unprecedented next level tent city that has formed around the Robert Guertin arena and Brewer's Creek in Gatineau this summer. SFO is closer than you think, and things are getting worse by the day!

High profile shootings, exodus of office workers, regular LRT shutdowns, declining downtown amenities (long-term construction of Parliament, the collapse of the farmers market, etc.). These should all cause alarm for the future of downtown.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

I guess it'd be irresponsible to completely dismiss that possibility, but as someone who spends lots of time in SFO, I can tell you that Ottawa's problem is nowhere near as bad as theirs.

That being said, I do think the long term success of the Market hinges on decentralizing amenities/services for the homeless, which are currently concentrated in that district.

Any kind of decentralization seems very unlikely. These shelters have been full for years so the increase seems to be more about what they are allowed to do and the return of drug sales being concentrated in the area rather than the services for homeless no?

[lrt's friend]

Publicity of growth of the poverty industry is designed to push the public to increase support and donations. It is not designed to solve the root causes. If shelter use declined, taxpayer support might decline. Is that a desirable goal?

[originalmuffins]

I just spent a day at Rideau this weekend. It was packed to the brim, Rideau is not so dead these days. Byward still has decent foot traffic. It just needs its redevelopment plan going. Rideau is doing just fine, it's not doom and gloom - Byward needs some work, but again it's doable to keep it going long term. For Byward, they need to fix things as per their plan, and fully convert it to walkable. Sure the farmer's market had history, but they need to keep things going with what works. For Rideau, they just need to repurpose the remaining bits of the Nordstrom lot and the 4th floor old theatre to something. We now know Rec Room is coming to Lansdowne, but there are definitely things that they can add to make Rideau more enticing. But they really need to utilize that 4th floor lot.

[DTcrawler]

Yeah, I go to Rideau and the Market quite often and there's usually a fair amount of people, and more often than not, they're both completely packed. I definitely realize there are challenges, especially when you hear it from business owners in the Market, but when you see those places so animated, it's hard to buy into the whole doom and gloom outlook you hear from the media and others who don't go downtown much (or ever).

Rideau will also be getting a boost by bringing new residents on-site with the Rideau Registry development. It would've been really cool if that building would have included an amenities floor at the same height as Rideau's rooftop terrace, with the two connected via a short skywalk. Depending on what they end up doing with the Nordstrom space (which is also connected to the terrace) it all could've been a neatly integrated solution.

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

I just spent a day at Rideau this weekend. It was packed to the brim, Rideau is not so dead these days. Byward still has decent foot traffic. It just needs its redevelopment plan going. Rideau is doing just fine, it's not doom and gloom - Byward needs some work, but again it's doable to keep it going long term. For Byward, they need to fix things as per their plan, and fully convert it to walkable. Sure the farmer's market had history, but they need to keep things going with what works. For Rideau, they just need to repurpose the remaining bits of the Nordstrom lot and the 4th floor old theatre to something. We now know Rec Room is coming to Lansdowne, but there are definitely things that they can add to make Rideau more enticing. But they really need to utilize that 4th floor lot.

Imaginaire will be opening a store taking up space on the third and fourth floor. Probably the remainder of the 4th floor I imagine.

[OTownandDown]

Whatever happened to the giant street-by-street makeover plan that we all so diligently commented on years ago? The one with the linear fountains, the York on-street parking changes, and the 'iconic building' where the civic parking garage is? Is that dead?

[J.OT13]

Controversial opinion. I've generally been in support of enforcing drug laws on drug dealers, but not on drug addicts, but I do wonder if this recent laxity on drug possession and use has made things worse. Doesn't seem like we "help" drug addicts anymore. We seem to encourage them. Save their lives when they overdose, ask if they want help, they refuse and we send them on their way so they can overdose again next week. This has also created more dangerous conditions for the rest of us as we often see more needles and paraphernalia lying around because a. drug use in a public setting is now ok and b. we give them clean drug kits that they can then leave anywhere after use. If we at least asked them to return their kits in exchange for new ones?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Whatever happened to the giant street-by-street makeover plan that we all so diligently commented on years ago? The one with the linear fountains, the York on-street parking changes, and the 'iconic building' where the civic parking garage is? Is that dead?

I think it's one of those "we're waiting for funds from upper levels of Government, but we haven't actually requested funds from upper levels of Government" type deal. Sutcliffe doesn't seem keen on any public realm improvements, especially if it involves making it easier for cyclists and pedestrians and harder on drivers, so I don't see it happening. We'll celebrate the Market's 200th with a ByWards in the same state as it is today.

What happened to those self-cleaning public washrooms we were supposed to get?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Controversial opinion. I've generally been in support of enforcing drug laws on drug dealers, but not on drug addicts, but I do wonder if this recent laxity on drug possession and use has made things worse. Doesn't seem like we "help" drug addicts anymore. We seem to encourage them. Save their lives when they overdose, ask if they want help, they refuse and we send them on their way so they can overdose again next week. This has also created more dangerous conditions for the rest of us as we often see more needles and paraphernalia lying around because a. drug use in a public setting is now ok and b. we give them clean drug kits that they can then leave anywhere after use. If we at least asked them to return their kits in exchange for new ones?

Honestly this isn't remotely controversial except with the small group of activists running the agenda on these issues. At a miniumum we should force anyone behaving in a threatening or especially violent manner into rehab or prison. Sure many have other mental health issues but giving them a "clean" supply of drugs certainly isn't addressing those issues either.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Honestly this isn't remotely controversial except with the small group of activists running the agenda on these issues. At a miniumum we should force anyone behaving in a threatening or especially violent manner into rehab or prison. Sure many have other mental health issues but giving them a "clean" supply of drugs certainly isn't addressing those issues either.

Actually this is a perfect example of where the people making decisions are totally disconnected from public opinion. And it's not just activists, but also politicians and basically anyone with responsibility on such matters (city staff, policy-makers, etc.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Harley613

I'm worried about this becoming the situation for Rideau Centre and the Byward Market in the not so distant future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4qWXHuYqf8
• Video Link

LOL at the video's title that refers to San Francisco's "changing economy"!

Anyway, as for the Rideau-Byward district I definitely agree it's not even close to what is being observed in San Francisco (or even Vancouver for that matter), but we need to keep in mind that such things can change really really fast. And that once control is lost it's extremely hard to put the genie back in the bottle.

This part of Ottawa is not trending the right way at all at the moment. The sooner things are set on the right course again, the better.

It's urgent.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Controversial opinion. I've generally been in support of enforcing drug laws on drug dealers, but not on drug addicts, but I do wonder if this recent laxity on drug possession and use has made things worse. Doesn't seem like we "help" drug addicts anymore. We seem to encourage them. Save their lives when they overdose, ask if they want help, they refuse and we send them on their way so they can overdose again next week. This has also created more dangerous conditions for the rest of us as we often see more needles and paraphernalia lying around because a. drug use in a public setting is now ok and b. we give them clean drug kits that they can then leave anywhere after use. If we at least asked them to return their kits in exchange for new ones?

I'm not really up on the enforcement side of things, but have there actually been significant changes to our approach? I know that is the popular narrative (same on bail), but I haven't heard much in the way of specifics as to what exactly has changed.

On safe injections sites, I think that the debate has been really polarized (what a surprise these days). There is clear evidence that the sites save lives in the big picture, but that doesn't mean that there can't be legitimate objections to how they operate or their impact on neighbourhoods. Right now there don't seem to be any protections put in place for the neighbourhoods that these sites are put in, and from what I've seen they can be devastating to the immediate neighbours. If there was more balance to the approach there would be more public buy in.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not really up on the enforcement side of things, but have there actually been significant changes to our approach? I know that is the popular narrative (same on bail), but I haven't heard much in the way of specifics as to what exactly has changed.

From what I understand, the cops just don't deal with drug use or possession unless it's an overdose. I could be wrong.

That's another thing though, if the cops were "de-tasked" from dealing with drug use, where have those resources moved too? We constantly hear about how cops are overworked, even though we've been taking work away from them non-stop over the last 10 years (no longer respond to minor car accidents, we have to drive to the station to take pictures, no longer show up for burglary calls, no drug use enforcement, speed and red light cameras taking work away from them...)

[DTcrawler]

I think we've somewhat lost the plot when it comes to the goal of rehab for people with addictions.

I recently saw a story on CBC about a pilot project in NS where they offered a safe supply of alcohol to a group of addicts so they no longer had to spend their days panhandling or potentially committing petty theft to fund their addiction. But then, the group behind the pilot ran into an issue where they realized the addicts were now bored, no longer having to spend their days working to obtain booze. So, the group set up an arts and crafts program to keep them busy.

While watching this story, it really made me realize, have we just given up on the idea of weaning people away from their addictions and re-integrating them as contributing members of society? The possibility of that wasn't even mentioned once during the story. And I know it comes across as Tory "get a job you freeloader" talk but at the end of the day, that is fundamentally how our society is structured.

I feel a similar mindset is applicable not just here in Ottawa, but across Canada. We're happy offering a safe supply but we don't dare forcing these people into programs. I'm all for harm reduction but we really need to take a second and ask what the end goal is, because I suspect people on opposite ends of the aisle have different visions, and that's something that needs to be addressed.

Edit: should've linked the story, so here it is. Reading it again, it almost comes across as satire.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not really up on the enforcement side of things, but have there actually been significant changes to our approach? I know that is the popular narrative (same on bail), but I haven't heard much in the way of specifics as to what exactly has changed.

On safe injections sites, I think that the debate has been really polarized (what a surprise these days). There is clear evidence that the sites save lives in the big picture, but that doesn't mean that there can't be legitimate objections to how they operate or their impact on neighbourhoods. Right now there don't seem to be any protections put in place for the neighbourhoods that these sites are put in, and from what I've seen they can be devastating to the immediate neighbours. If there was more balance to the approach there would be more public buy in.

Saving lives can't be the only measure. Everyone else's quality of life is being diminished and for immediate neighbours is being substantially diminished. There is some public housing in the market and I see the mom's waiting for the school bus with their kids. They have no option to move.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

I think we've somewhat lost the plot when it comes to the goal of rehab for people with addictions.

I recently saw a story on CBC about a pilot project in NS where they offered a safe supply of alcohol to a group of addicts so they no longer had to spend their days panhandling or potentially committing petty theft to fund their addiction. But then, the group behind the pilot ran into an issue where they realized the addicts were now bored, no longer having to spend their days working to obtain booze. So, the group set up an arts and crafts program to keep them busy.

While watching this story, it really made me realize, have we just given up on the idea of weaning people away from their addictions and re-integrating them as contributing members of society? The possibility of that wasn't even mentioned once during the story. And I know it comes across as Tory "get a job you freeloader" talk but at the end of the day, that is fundamentally how our society is structured.

I feel a similar mindset is applicable not just here in Ottawa, but across Canada. We're happy offering a safe supply but we don't dare forcing these people into programs. I'm all for harm reduction but we really need to take a second and ask what the end goal is, because I suspect people on opposite ends of the aisle have different visions, and that's something that needs to be addressed.

Edit: should've linked the story, so here it is. Reading it again, it almost comes across as satire.

We're not about forcing anyone into anything these days. We barely manage to force dangerous criminals into jail and keep them there.

Welcome to the era of unlimited individual liberties.

C'est ça que ça donne.

[McKellarDweller]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Seeing this also made me say WTF:

Indeed. What an embarrassing POS.

[Jay31]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Controversial opinion. I've generally been in support of enforcing drug laws on drug dealers, but not on drug addicts, but I do wonder if this recent laxity on drug possession and use has made things worse. Doesn't seem like we "help" drug addicts anymore. We seem to encourage them. Save their lives when they overdose, ask if they want help, they refuse and we send them on their way so they can overdose again next week. This has also created more dangerous conditions for the rest of us as we often see more needles and paraphernalia lying around because a. drug use in a public setting is now ok and b. we give them clean drug kits that they can then leave anywhere after use. If we at least asked them to return their kits in exchange for new ones?

It may partly be a rebound from all of the hugely expensive and failed "War on drugs" from the 90s, when it was primarily viewed as a policing problem.... all that did was drive the drug trade even further into organize crime, making the overall crime rate higher. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I also doubt that rebounding back to that will actually address the problem...if anything, it will probably make it worse. I recall NYC in the early 90s, which was very heavy on police AND a worse mess than you see in the market.

For what it's worth, I think the situation in the market is vastly overstated in the Ottawa media, on r/ottawa, etc. I spend a lot of weekends down there, and it's packed with people and families. Any time you have a lot of people in one area, you'll have social problems...and the market is ground zero for that in Ottawa. Most of Ottawa is suburban (you can guess where they send their homeless) with a few rich neighbourhoods.. I was in Montreal on the weekend, in areas busier than the market - and you'll similarly see addicts, mentally ill, homeless, etc. That's not to say that more shouldn't be done, just that it's not the disaster area people make out... more people, more social issues.