YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by casper

Yes Canadian airlines (AC) are limited to 3,000 seats per week and Australia (QF + V Australia) are limited to 3,000 seats per week.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/australia

I wonder the reasoning or logic behind that (and other routes as well, I'm sure).

[Cage]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I wonder the reasoning or logic behind that (and other routes as well, I'm sure).

The Australia canada bilateral agree,met was signed in 1988 and predates any open skies agreement. Back in the day bilateral air transport agreements were highly restrictive, mostly for bureaucratic reasons.

[Johnny Aussie]

Only for a week but why not eh??

@airlineroute: ANA to fly 787-9 on Tokyo Haneda - Vancouver route, from 17OCT15 to 24OCT15

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Cage

The Australia canada bilateral agree,met was signed in 1988 and predates any open skies agreement. Back in the day bilateral air transport agreements were highly restrictive, mostly for bureaucratic reasons.

Could this be changed now to allow for higher pax capacity?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Could this be changed now to allow for higher pax capacity?

From Canada side, absolutely it can be changed. However the Australian side has no incentive to increase seat capacity. Actually there is an incentive not to increase capacity.

QF (just the mainline carrier) is dependent upon the Australia-USA routes for their livelihood, there is nothing else left for them save for a few routes between Japan and Austrlia. The european routes have been ceded to the ME3 and Asian routes have gone to the LCCs. Finally QF does not have the optimal equipment type for the route where as AC does. So overall no incentive update the bilateral.

[CareerShow]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Only for a week but why not eh??

@airlineroute: ANA to fly 787-9 on Tokyo Haneda - Vancouver route, from 17OCT15 to 24OCT15

Do we know which 787-8 and 787-9 ANA is sending?

[CareerShow]

Also, a bit off topic, but does anyone know how the films "Just Planes" are able to film inside the cockpit?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Cage

From Canada side, absolutely it can be changed. However the Australian side has no incentive to increase seat capacity. Actually there is an incentive not to increase capacity.

QF (just the mainline carrier) is dependent upon the Australia-USA routes for their livelihood, there is nothing else left for them save for a few routes between Japan and Austrlia. The european routes have been ceded to the ME3 and Asian routes have gone to the LCCs. Finally QF does not have the optimal equipment type for the route where as AC does. So overall no incentive update the bilateral.

Thank you for this informative reply. Is this a possible example of where the M3 have "cannibalized" routes, (in this case QF)?
Or did the Australians get into this, with prior awareness that this would happen?
I ask this not only because of Canada's restrictive policies towards the M3, but also the incidental fact that EK flies not only to LHR and Manchester, but also Birmingham, Dublin, Glasgow, and EVEN Newcastle-on-Tyne in England.
Does EK have fifth freedoms from these UK cities or what? It all seems a bit unreal to me.
** Back on topic, does the unwillingness of Australia to raise the cap on pax # preclude eventual Melbourne service? I hope not.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you for this informative reply. Is this a possible example of where the M3 have "cannibalized" routes, (in this case QF)?
Or did the Australians get into this, with prior awareness that this would happen?
I ask this not only because of Canada's restrictive policies towards the M3, but also the incidental fact that EK flies not only to LHR and Manchester, but also Birmingham, Dublin, Glasgow, and EVEN Newcastle-on-Tyne in England.
Does EK have fifth freedoms from these UK cities or what? It all seems a bit unreal to me.
** Back on topic, does the unwillingness of Australia to raise the cap on pax # preclude eventual Melbourne service? I hope not.

You are comparing apples to celery here! What goes on in the UK and Ireland (which are under separate bilaterals although the EU is trying to change this) has no relation to what goes on between Canada and Australia. Just because Emirates can fly to these countries doesn't mean they have fifth freedom rights to fly to other ports of call from those countries. And no, they do not have fifth freedom rights. The UK was once very open back when the first generation of open skies were negotiated with the US, but this was all clawed back when they realised UK airlines were suffering as a result of the US airlines.

Yes, the agreement does restrict potential service to Australia. Which is why I don't see the Sydney route being "upgraded" anytime soon to a HD configuration if they were to fly to Brisbane as it would reach the maximum seat capacity between the two countries.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by deasine

..............

Yes, the agreement does restrict potential service to Australia. Which is why I don't see the Sydney route being "upgraded" anytime soon to a HD configuration if they were to fly to Brisbane as it would reach the maximum seat capacity between the two countries.

We can erase Melbourne from our hopes and plans, if that's the case. Pity.

[casper]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

We can erase Melbourne from our hopes and plans, if that's the case. Pity.

Air Canada operates the 777-200ER with 228+48 = 276 (lets assume after the "upgrades to 3-4-3 and PE) it is something like 300. That is 2,100 seats. They still have room for a second service 3 tines a week.

I am assuming the cap is per direction. I am not certain if that assumption is correct or not.

I think at the end of the day the M3 are going drive the Australian aviation industry to being mostly a domestic service with a few token long range international routes.

Several years ago Canada (and Air Canada) was pushing for a YYZ-LAX-SYD route. It was a no go with the Australian authorities. Canada had the rights to between SFO or Hawaii but not LAX. You can guess which airline had there LAX-SYD as their bread and butter route. Today LAX-SYD has a lot of competition. Not certain QF will maintain its market share in the long run.

Back when these agreements were negotiated there was not a lot demand. Air Canada (and Canadian before them and Canadian Pacific before them) had a stop in Hawaii with fifth freedom rights. That was partially due to the fact they did not have an aircraft that could make it all the way and partially due to the fact that they could not fill an aircraft to Australia. For many years it was a 767 and did take on a certain amount of local Australia to Hawaii service.

[casper]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you for this informative reply. Is this a possible example of where the M3 have "cannibalized" routes, (in this case QF)?
Or did the Australians get into this, with prior awareness that this would happen?
I ask this not only because of Canada's restrictive policies towards the M3, but also the incidental fact that EK flies not only to LHR and Manchester, but also Birmingham, Dublin, Glasgow, and EVEN Newcastle-on-Tyne in England.
Does EK have fifth freedoms from these UK cities or what? It all seems a bit unreal to me.
** Back on topic, does the unwillingness of Australia to raise the cap on pax # preclude eventual Melbourne service? I hope not.

The M3 focus is on connecting the UK (and the rest of Europe) with India, Australia and a host of smaller destinations in Asia, the middle east and Africa. It makes it hard on the European airlines, they are slowing reducing flights. The UK has a lot of people with business and/or family ties to places like Australia, India, Pakistan, etc. Makes it easy to fill those aircraft.

Air Canada is making good use of its quote. QF (and other Australian airlines) are not using their quota at all.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by casper

I am assuming the cap is per direction. I am not certain if that assumption is correct or not.

I think at the end of the day the M3 are going drive the Australian aviation industry to being mostly a domestic service with a few token long range international routes.

Today LAX-SYD has a lot of competition. Not certain QF will maintain its market share in the long run.

Back when these agreements were negotiated there was not a lot demand. Air Canada (and Canadian before them and Canadian Pacific before them) had a stop in Hawaii with fifth freedom rights. That was partially due to the fact they did not have an aircraft that could make it all the way and partially due to the fact that they could not fill an aircraft to Australia. For many years it was a 767 and did take on a certain amount of local Australia to Hawaii service.

Originally Posted by casper

Air Canada is making good use of its quote. QF (and other Australian airlines) are not using their quota at all.

To quickly address all your points....

Yes the cap is weekly seats each way per country.

The ME3 is definitely hurting a lot of Aussie routes, not just Aussie airlines.
Malaysia Airlines, for example, with its upcoming restructure is pulling all BNE flights and reducing MEL, SYD, ADL and PER. However, there is still a lot of potential for International routes for Aussie carriers. Everything this side of the Middle East, North and South America and even possibly Africa. Growth will continue to push into Asia, however, QF has to contend with the big Chinese Airlines and some very strong Asian airlines in other areas, plus a lot of LCC competition so it's not just the ME3.

LAX-SYD is about to get another player too. QF, UA, DL, VA and now AA will all be flying the route non-stop. Although, QF and AA are in bed together. I wouldn't be surprised to see VA pull all longhaul international services.

Air Canada is certainly making good use of its quota. And you are right Aussie airlines aren't because they don't have the right equipment to service the route efficiently year-round. That will change very soon and rest assured, SYD-YVR will be in the first round of additions.

[Johnny Aussie]

Tweet from YVR

@yvrairport: YVR thrilled to welcome the inaugural @ChinaEasternNA flight from Kunming this evening! #YVR

[trofirhen]

Below are images for the runways at SFO and ATL, respectively.
My question is, how are the intersecting runways at SFO used simultaneously without danger of collision, as they intersect in the middle? Or are they long enough to be used at each end?

At ATL, they are parallel, with diagonal runways at the periphery.
This seems more logical for simultaneous takeoffs and landings.


https://jethead.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/sfo-10-9a.jpg

http://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/DFW_diagram.gif


http://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/DFW_diagram.gif
Pardon my ignorance, but this intrigues me. Thank you for your understanding.

[Johnny Aussie]

Always pleased to see local airlines expanding.

In this case, Pacific Coastal has increased its fleet and has introduced new scheduled and charter flights from its YVR base and also YYJ.

A new daily YYJ-YXS flight was added earlier this year and more recently a new weekday charter flight to Dease Lake from YVR.

Full story here ---> http://www.pacificcoastal.com/new-aircraft-new-livery-added-to-pacific-coastal-airlines-fleet/

[Denscity]

^^^ Ya only PC's Trail to Kelowna flight has been cancelled recently.

[teriyaki]

My completely amateur guess at this is that only 2 runways are used at each time at sfo. Ideally the pair that had the favourable winds would be used. Using a north south runway when winds are blowing east west wouldn't make sense...?

[Gordon]

They do sometimes use the intersecting runways simultaneously but it takes much more co-ordination between the tower & approach control normally they use the 2 longer North south runways. They also have a capacity control program that may cause regional short haul traffic to be delayed.
somey times of the day Yvr SFO flights will be held at the gate(gate hold) to allow backlogged international traffic to clear and smetimes this happens for fog as well.

[Klazu]

My only question with ME3 eating Australian airlines is why is Australian government doing nothing to protect their business? They could easily set quotas for Emirates et al and shrink their business and benefit Qantas.

Middle East countries are just transit points and not a destination for many, so setting unfair quotas shouldn't be a problem. It would be a problem when dealing with destination countries like China or the US.