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  #7501  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 3:23 AM
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Originally Posted by king10 View Post
100 million spent on mcmahon is just prolonging the inevitable. Throw that money in a GIC and use it as a downpayment on a new facility.

No point putting lipstick on a pig. Calgary needs a brand new stadium. Not a cosmetic reno.

They dont need to go all out like winnipeg or regina. Something in between thf and igf/nms would do them just fine.
Have you ever been to a game in Calgary? great sight lines, close to the field. I'm not sure why everyone is hating on McMahon. It needs to be brought up to new standards for sure but filling in the endzones would do this just fine. Updated facade, New seats, more washrooms and concourse space and better concession areas . that's all the place needs anything else would be a bonus
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  #7502  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 3:55 AM
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It's funny how things change, 10 years ago McMahon was a middle of the pack facility as far as CFL venues go, but now it's poised to become the most out of date stadium in the league once NMS opens.

On one hand I hear what Oilkountry is saying, the stadium itself is still very well suited to football and in some respects it has been upgraded significantly since it first opened, not to mention the fact that its location is great. But on the other hand, if the Calgary fans in this forum are representative of the city's feelings, then I think the writing might be on the wall. Fans don't have many nice things to say about the place, and I'm sure that Calgary's stagnant attendance despite having a team that has generally been dominant over the last 25 years probably speaks to fan dissatisfaction to some degree.

And to king10's comment, I would expect any new stadium in Calgary to be closer to the NMS/IGF model than anything from out east. In a division where the other stadiums are either shiny and new (Winnipeg, Regina) or huge (Edmonton, BC), it would be weird if a well-supported team like Calgary opted to go the stripped-down THF/TD Place route instead.
     
     
  #7503  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 4:31 AM
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Yeah, THF/TD Place type facilities would be very small for Calgary, considering a low-end night for them is about 27-29k, and they do manage to sell the place out for the odd Labour Day/Rider game (not as often as they did 5-10 years ago though). Something slightly smaller than the 35k of McMahon, around the size of IGF would be ideal for them IMO. I bet a new stadium would also bring new life to an already good fanbase and game-day experience that exists in Calgary.

On a side note, can somebody venture a guess as to why Calgary's attendance is down compared to where it was consistently say, five years ago? The team on the field is as dominant as ever, two years removed from a championship...it actually seems to me like attendance has lagged ever since Burris left the team?
     
     
  #7504  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 5:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Oilkountry View Post
Have you ever been to a game in Calgary? great sight lines, close to the field. I'm not sure why everyone is hating on McMahon. It needs to be brought up to new standards for sure but filling in the endzones would do this just fine. Updated facade, New seats, more washrooms and concourse space and better concession areas . that's all the place needs anything else would be a bonus
That's all? That's a pretty major reno. Probably cheaper to start anew.
     
     
  #7505  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Oilkountry View Post
Have you ever been to a game in Calgary? great sight lines, close to the field. I'm not sure why everyone is hating on McMahon. It needs to be brought up to new standards for sure but filling in the endzones would do this just fine. Updated facade, New seats, more washrooms and concourse space and better concession areas . that's all the place needs anything else would be a bonus

That sounds like hamilton all over again. They decided to go with a new build because it was actually the same price to build a brand new stadium than upgrade the exisiting ivor wynne.

That and the grandtand grade didnt allow for individual seats to be installed.
     
     
  #7506  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 12:52 PM
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Mitchell answers questions
Steve Milton Sep 01 2011 theSpec.com

At first blush, it all seems counterintuitive.

How can building new stands on the north side of Ivor Wynne Stadium not cost more than renovating the current ones?

And how can the significantly reduced seating capacity — from the original 25,000 seats to a reported 22,500 — not negatively impact the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ bottom line?

Those were among the nagging questions after it was revealed last week that plans for the Pan Am Stadium on the current site of Ivor Wynne now call for the entire north stands to be torn down and rebuilt, instead of being refurbished atop the current infrastructure.

“This is absolutely and positively the most cost-efficient and responsible decision,” Ticat president Scott Mitchell answered Wednesday. “This isn’t a good thing, it’s a great thing.”

By agreeing to the reduced seat inventory, the Ticats made a major concession to Infrastructure Ontario to keep construction costs at the original estimate.

And, Mitchell says, potential builders will welcome the idea of constructing the north stands from the ground up, rather than trying to work around existing flaws, many of which are major.

“That’s 100 per cent accurate,” Mitchell said. “This creates cost certainty in the construction phase. You never know what you’re going to find out when you renovate. It might have involved all kinds of (capital) expense that wasn’t anticipated. And this prohibits the city from potentially having to spend tens of millions of dollars in maintenance of the north stands in the next few years.”

Additionally, having renovated north stands with uncomfortable bench seating and the same washroom and concession facilities as in the past would have meant that the Cats, and the city, were going to operate, in effect, two different facilities.

“What was clearly emerging was a have-versus-have-not scenario on the two sides of the stadium,” he said. “And that’s not conducive to effective cost management or a good in-stadium experience.”

The Tiger-Cats need to derive $10 million per year, or roughly $1 million per game, from ticket sales. Mitchell, bound by a confidentiality clause, would not comment on the exact capacity of the new stadium. But assuming the 22,500 figure is accurate, at an average $50 per ticket, the Cats will cover the $10 million as long as they sell out most games.

And a smaller stadium actually helps dramatically with that. Increasing the demand for tickets because there is a limited supply should translate into more season ticket holders than the current number, estimated to be slightly under 15,000. The Chicago Cubs and Boston Red Sox have always operated that way because of their old, small stadiums, but in 1990 the Baltimore Orioles became the first professional sports team to deliberately build a new stadium smaller than their old one. That forces fans to buy season’s tickets for fear that they won’t be able to get the tickets for games they really want. Then, weather and the competitive state of the team don’t affect sales as profoundly. The Montreal Alouettes had the same situation with the 20,000-seat Molson Stadium, and sold out every game for years.

The Ticats average between 23,000 and 24,000 spectators per game but about 20 per cent of them enjoy complimentary tickets, significantly lower than the figure from three years ago but still nearly double the industry standard. Tightening up on contra (tickets instead of cash, paid for services) and special group sales will allow the Cats to realize full income from a far greater percentage of the seats.

“So the biggest casualty in the capacity reduction will be those contra deals and big corporate buys,” Mitchell said.

The break-even point for most CFL teams is believed to be about $15 million in total annual income. With recent huge increases in TV viewership, broadcast revenues are expected to double or triple in the next couple of years, taking a big bite out of the $5 million income required beyond ticket sales. While the number of high-rent corporate boxes and club seats slated for the new stadium have not been revealed, there are going to be at least twice as many as there are now, adding more income potential to the Cats’ balance sheet.

“And clearly, we’ll have major increased revenue from concessions and merchandising because of an enhanced stadium experience,” Mitchell says. “It will also be a better experience for our corporate partners.”

The Ticats plan to cap individual season ticket sales at between 17,000 and 18,000. Season’s tickets prices for 2011 range from $14 per game in the end zone to $160 for the box seats at midfield. Those prices are expected to rise by two per cent next year.

But the team announced Wednesday that season’s tickets for 2012, the last season at Ivor Wynne, would cost the same as tickets for 2014, the first season in the new stadium.

“We wanted to nip in the bud all the talk that ‘I won’t be able to go to the new stadium because I can’t afford it,’” Mitchell explained.

Mitchell also said that the $1.3 million rent the Cats will pay the city in the new stadium will be the highest in the CFL and that the more income the club makes, the more the city will make on their rake-off of the profit, over and above the rental agreement.

And, he says, the seating capacity on opening day doesn’t have to remain that way. He wouldn’t comment directly, but the configuration of the new stadium has to include room for enough temporary seating to reach the 40,000 minimum required to play host to a Grey Cup Game.

“Infrastructure Ontario will deliver a great stadium, but obviously there’d be nothing stopping us, as far as far as post-Pan Am Games go, from adding more seating ourselves.”
     
     
  #7507  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 2:54 PM
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^ It was the same thing with Winnipeg. The many, many small but significant fixes that an old stadium would need would have been immensely expensive, and you don't know how many other issues would turn up over the course of a major renovation.

In 2008, the costs for fixing up CanadInns Stadium were estimated at around $52 million. But that would have been just to fix the issues with the old place and really wouldn't have improved the fan experience at all, nor would it have opened up any new revenue streams for the team.

It's one thing to renovate a place that might be 20 or 30 years old with a lot of life left in it, but once a stadium gets to be over 50 years old in our climate, at a certain point you're starting to throw good money after bad. That said, it does look like the newer generation of venues is being maintained to a far higher standard than the old ones... Shaw Park, the minor league ballpark in downtown Winnipeg, is 17 years old but it's still in excellent condition.
     
     
  #7508  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 4:43 PM
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Rogers Place - video screen testing:



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  #7509  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 5:05 PM
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Karen Bartko ‏@KarenBartko 22 minutes ago
Check out the new photos from inside @RogersPlace! http://globalnews.ca/news/2908988/rogers...-with-line-painting-art-installation/… #yeg #yegdt #Oilers pic.twitter.com/UPYyLlxcto

     
     
  #7510  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 5:08 PM
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Rogers Place looks expensive. Kats will sure get his money from all the fans one way or another.

How many seasons until the Oilers have the most expensive tickets in the league (Minus the Jets that have the low supply advantage with a tiny seating capacity relative to other teams)?

To me Rogers Place looks like the equivalent to At&T (Jerryworld) in Arlington. I can't say that Rogers Place was overbuilt like Jerryworld though we will have to see it in action to gauge how opulent that arena truly is.

---

@Oilcountry.

The reason NMS has skimpy upper decks is because they cost $.

It is the quickest way to save on costs on new stadium construction. The logic is that it costs double the amount to construct seats that will sell for a quarter the amount that premium sections do. Nosebleeds cost the most to make, many facilities just scrap those seats and make "party decks" and standing room seats instead.
     
     
  #7511  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 6:11 PM
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Now that's a beautiful arena. Best new sports venue in the country in a long long time.
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  #7512  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
Rogers Place looks expensive. Kats will sure get his money from all the fans one way or another.

How many seasons until the Oilers have the most expensive tickets in the league (Minus the Jets that have the low supply advantage with a tiny seating capacity relative to other teams)?

To me Rogers Place looks like the equivalent to At&T (Jerryworld) in Arlington. I can't say that Rogers Place was overbuilt like Jerryworld though we will have to see it in action to gauge how opulent that arena truly is.
I'd be pretty surprised if this season anyone other than the Leafs had an average ticket price higher than the Oilers. Their prices are really going to the next level.

Quote:
@Oilcountry.

The reason NMS has skimpy upper decks is because they cost $.

It is the quickest way to save on costs on new stadium construction. The logic is that it costs double the amount to construct seats that will sell for a quarter the amount that premium sections do. Nosebleeds cost the most to make, many facilities just scrap those seats and make "party decks" and standing room seats instead.
Makes sense as a value engineering technique.
     
     
  #7513  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 7:49 PM
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'I'd be pretty surprised if this season anyone other than the Leafs had an average ticket price higher than the Oilers. Their prices are really going to the next level.'

They really are... ours (mid 2nd level) went up about 20%, some lower 2nd level up 30-40%.
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  #7514  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
'I'd be pretty surprised if this season anyone other than the Leafs had an average ticket price higher than the Oilers. Their prices are really going to the next level.'

They really are... ours (mid 2nd level) went up about 20%, some lower 2nd level up 30-40%.
The more loyal the fanbase, the harder it gets screwed. In Canada, if you want season tickets, be prepared to pony up the price of a reliable used car every year.

Meanwhile in Florida, you can get a lower bowl seat for less than what I typically spend on beer at a game, and I'm not even a big drinker.

http://www.vividseats.com/nhl-hockey/florida-panthers-tickets/panthers-vs-oilers-2-22-2083734.html
     
     
  #7515  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
The more loyal the fanbase, the harder it gets screwed. In Canada, if you want season tickets, be prepared to pony up the price of a reliable used car every year.

Meanwhile in Florida, you can get a lower bowl seat for less than what I typically spend on beer at a game, and I'm not even a big drinker.

http://www.vividseats.com/nhl-hockey/florida-panthers-tickets/panthers-vs-oilers-2-22-2083734.html
But that's ok because the franchise-based parity system of North American sport ensures both teams are competitive regardless of fan support and prevents other teams from emerging in popular markets.
     
     
  #7516  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan View Post
Yeah, THF/TD Place type facilities would be very small for Calgary, considering a low-end night for them is about 27-29k, and they do manage to sell the place out for the odd Labour Day/Rider game (not as often as they did 5-10 years ago though). Something slightly smaller than the 35k of McMahon, around the size of IGF would be ideal for them IMO. I bet a new stadium would also bring new life to an already good fanbase and game-day experience that exists in Calgary.

On a side note, can somebody venture a guess as to why Calgary's attendance is down compared to where it was consistently say, five years ago? The team on the field is as dominant as ever, two years removed from a championship...it actually seems to me like attendance has lagged ever since Burris left the team?
I've heard rumours that the economy in Calgary is suffering through a slump.
     
     
  #7517  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 8:49 PM
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I've heard rumours that the economy in Calgary is suffering through a slump.
The Flames' attendance numbers are unaffected by the slump so it can't be that, unless a disproportionate number of Stamps fans have been laid off.
     
     
  #7518  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 9:49 PM
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It's one thing to renovate a place that might be 20 or 30 years old with a lot of life left in it, but once a stadium gets to be over 50 years old in our climate, at a certain point you're starting to throw good money after bad.
Green Bay.
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  #7519  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 9:52 PM
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Green Bay.
Certainly a fair counterpoint. They've transformed that stadium over the years.
     
     
  #7520  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2016, 10:22 PM
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Certainly a fair counterpoint. They've transformed that stadium over the years.
For those curious:

By the end of 1999, the Packers believed that they needed to update the facility to remain financially competitive in the NFL. Rather than build a new stadium, Chairman/CEO Bob Harlan and President/COO John Jones unveiled a $295 million plan to renovate Lambeau Field in January 2000. It was to be paid for partly by the team via the 1997–98 stock sale, which netted more than $20 million. Most of the proceeds were to be paid through a 0.5% sales tax in Brown County and personal seat license fees on season ticket holders. After their plan won approval by the Wisconsin State Legislature, it was ratified by Brown County voters on September 12, 2000 by a 53%–47% margin. Construction began early in 2001. The sales tax expired on September 30, 2015.[29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambeau_Field#2001.E2.80.9303_renovation

So if Calgary had the power to levy it's own tax rate, put it to a vote for residents, then have it ratified by Alberta's Legislature...there's your solution.
     
     
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