The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by VIce

Unless you used to work for Enron, anyway.

good one

[Innsertnamehere]

Video showing the final station designs on the Eglinton Crosstown LRT:

• Video Link

[manny_santos]

I'm genuinely curious: When people get on buses or streetcars, why do they stop and stand just behind the driver and block other people from getting on, even if there's lots of space to move back? This morning I had to raise my voice at someone who was blocking 15 of us trying to get onto a TTC bus (after asking him politely to move, to no avail). This seems to happen all too often, not only on the TTC but other busy transit systems I've used.

In the case of this particular bus, the possible excuse of wanting to be near the door is moot, as the bus goes directly to a subway station where everyone gets off, so there's no need to fight through a crowd to get to the door.

At least in Toronto, these people seem to be a source of bus/streetcar delays - which can cascade into bigger delays when a delayed bus means missing a subway train. Some drivers ask people to move back but it often falls on deaf ears, and one TTC driver told me there's no point in even asking. Has anything been tried in other cities that works to get people to move right to the back when they get on?

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Move the Presto Reader past the wheel well choke point? That is, once Presto is the primary fair validation method.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I'm genuinely curious: When people get on buses or streetcars, why do they stop and stand just behind the driver and block other people from getting on, even if there's lots of space to move back? This morning I had to raise my voice at someone who was blocking 15 of us trying to get onto a TTC bus (after asking him politely to move, to no avail). This seems to happen all too often, not only on the TTC but other busy transit systems I've used.

In the case of this particular bus, the possible excuse of wanting to be near the door is moot, as the bus goes directly to a subway station where everyone gets off, so there's no need to fight through a crowd to get to the door.

At least in Toronto, these people seem to be a source of bus/streetcar delays - which can cascade into bigger delays when a delayed bus means missing a subway train. Some drivers ask people to move back but it often falls on deaf ears, and one TTC driver told me there's no point in even asking. Has anything been tried in other cities that works to get people to move right to the back when they get on?

I don't know why people act so silly with buses but it bothers me as well. The big issue we have isn't so much people standing near the front; it's people not using the rear doors. None of the buses here have all door boarding, and there are several signs in the interior that say "Move to the back of bus, use rear doors" but it seems like about 1/4 of people always get off through the front doors regardless of where they were standing or sitting, sometimes walking right past the rear doors, and people wanting to get on have stand there and wait or have a hard time squeezing by.

[Aylmer]

Well, whenever the bus isn't too full, I'll often take the time to exit by the front to thank the bus driver. If it inconveniences, I'll just take the closest entrance, though.

[Nouvellecosse]

It's not as bad if there's no one trying to get on, but it still takes extra time requiring the bus to make longer stops. And personally, people feeling like they have to thank the driver is another one of my transit peeves. I mean, maybe if they had done something for me like let me on for free or something, but I paid to get on and they'd be doing the same thing and driving the same bus on the same route even if I wasn't even there. They're not doing me any favours; they're just working.

Although I suppose going up front to thank them is better than those people who shout "Thank you!!" across the bus when exiting at the rear. Omg shut the fuck up.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Well, whenever the bus isn't too full, I'll often take the time to exit by the front to thank the bus driver. If it inconveniences, I'll just take the closest entrance, though.

Yeah, I usually use the front doors because those doors are quicker; they open and close faster than the ones in the back; so I figure it's more polite to go out the front. (Since there's no need to wait for the timer to expire and close the door after I'm through).

Now if the bus is busy (rare in Fredericton), or it's a major stop (ie the malls) where lots are getting on/off, I'll take the back exit. 90% of the time, I can go out the front door without getting in anyones way.

And yes, I usually thank the driver as I get off. (As do I'd guess 75% of the riders, even if they're getting off via the back door)

Thankfully, Freddy Transit isn't busy enough for the driver stoppers to get in the way. Most of the time people are pretty good at moving deeper into the bus and finding seats. (I suppose some of the University routes can get that busy; but I rarely take them. )

[1overcosc]

Front door blockers are a huge problem in Kingston. I usually sit in the back, and when the route gets busy, there's almost always a crowd of 10-15 people all standing around the front door while most of the seats in the back are empty.

People also tend to act like the stairs going from the front to the back are an invisible wall. People walk back to the stairs then stop. Often the bus driver actually has to get up from his seat and shout at people to move back--typically identifying the person in the process ("You in the blue sweater and the ball cap! Move back!")

This is mostly a problem with university students, I find. Not so much with permanent residents.

[caltrane74]

I don't find it fair to compare Calgary's rail transit to Toronto/Montreal because even though they are the same length, the transit here is more robust. (Underground Stations - built into Malls/Office Towers/or Under Streets)

Building underground lines takes time. When Toronto was the same size as Calgary maybe a little smaller we got the first underground line downtown. (Construction started in 1949 if I am correct) Wasn't even that long, maybe just 6km. The TTC built it without any government money, they had a surplus of cash. That extra cash profit disappeared though, once the TTC had to start building transit in the suburbs after amalgamation. Imagine if Toronto didn't have to swallow North York/Etobicoke/Scarborough? We would have subways all through downtown.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Video showing the final station designs on the Eglinton Crosstown LRT:

• Video Link

Good. I like the return to simplicity, and the compact footprint of these stations. Transit stations shouldn't be overblown palaces like they are on the Spadina extension. It's not just because they're expensive to build, it's because the stations are so enormous that it takes forever to reach the platform level. And designing standalone terminals makes the ability to integrate the station with the surroundings much more difficult.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Front door blockers are a huge problem in Kingston. I usually sit in the back, and when the route gets busy, there's almost always a crowd of 10-15 people all standing around the front door while most of the seats in the back are empty.

People also tend to act like the stairs going from the front to the back are an invisible wall. People walk back to the stairs then stop. Often the bus driver actually has to get up from his seat and shout at people to move back--typically identifying the person in the process ("You in the blue sweater and the ball cap! Move back!")

This is mostly a problem with university students, I find. Not so much with permanent residents.

It always was a big problem on London Transit as well, with the Western students. I don't see any demographic patterns with this problem on the TTC, but I also notice TTC operators are a lot more passive about this issue than the London and Kingston operators.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Building underground lines takes time. When Toronto was the same size as Calgary maybe a little smaller we got the first underground line downtown. (Construction started in 1949 if I am correct) Wasn't even that long, maybe just 6km. The TTC built it without any government money, they had a surplus of cash. That extra cash profit disappeared though, once the TTC had to start building transit in the suburbs after amalgamation. Imagine if Toronto didn't have to swallow North York/Etobicoke/Scarborough? We would have subways all through downtown.

I don't think that is true at all. Transit in most cities does not make a profit, and it would have just been a matter of time before a TTC only operating in the inner city would have required operating subsidy. The money the TTC had to build the Yonge subway came from a huge wartime ridership surge, which did not last after the war.

Fast forward to today, and many of the TTC's suburban bus routes have similar or higher cost recovery ratios to inner city bus and streetcar routes. If anything, it is the suburban ridership which makes the TTC what it is today, and made the robust subway usage we have.

[Doady]

Why do people act like Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough are some desolate, ultra-low density exurbs that cannot support transit? There is a reason why Finch, Sheppard, Steeles, etc. have buses coming every 3 minutes. If ridership is so bad, maybe we should cancel all these exburban LRTs too. If the buses in these exurbs are such an immense waste of money already, then just imagine how much a waste of money that the LRTs will be. And if North York is so undeserving of LRT, imagine what that says about an exexurban LRT like the one planned for Mississauga.

As for inner city bus/streetcars routes having "low" cost recovery (~60%), that is because of extra traffic congestion in the inner city. TTC was once profitable because it didn't have deal with as many cars. Faster transit means higher cost recovery - less vehicles required to provide the same capacity and frequency.

Yes, I think you find that ridership and cost recovery is about equal for surface routes downtown and in the exburbs, but downtown routes have extra obstacles. I hope the new much-longer streetcars with the all-door boarding will help speed things up and improve cost recovery a little.

As for exurban bus routes made the TTC subway ridership, I am not sure. It might be better to say TTC subways made the exurban bus ridership. TTC is a system, and a grid-based system at that, so routes depend on other routes to be useful. That's why they call it a system I guess...

[WhipperSnapper]

Sure and labour costs from construction and maintenance to operations were only a fraction of what they are now. A large portion of the Yonge subway was built in a shallow open cut. I have vague memories of an open air Summerhill. Even the underground stations are pretty shallow.

The TTC operational end was profitable once they rebuilt the system throughout the twenties but how profitable? I question if they actually could afford the debt incurred by building the Yonge subway. From what I can tell, it wasn't long after they started receiving subsidies to cover their operational and capital costs.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Doady

Why do people act like Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough are some desolate, ultra-low density exurbs that cannot support transit? There is a reason why Finch, Sheppard, Steeles, etc. have buses coming every 3 minutes. If ridership is so bad, maybe we should cancel all these exburban LRTs too. If the buses in these exurbs are such an immense waste of money already, then just imagine how much a waste of money that the LRTs will be. And if North York is so undeserving of LRT, imagine what that says about an exexurban LRT like the one planned for Mississauga.

As for inner city bus/streetcars routes having "low" cost recovery (~60%), that is because of extra traffic congestion in the inner city. TTC was once profitable because it didn't have deal with as many cars. Faster transit means higher cost recovery - less vehicles required to provide the same capacity and frequency.

Yes, I think you find that ridership and cost recovery is about equal for surface routes downtown and in the exburbs, but downtown routes have extra obstacles. I hope the new much-longer streetcars with the all-door boarding will help speed things up and improve cost recovery a little.

As for exurban bus routes made the TTC subway ridership, I am not sure. It might be better to say TTC subways made the exurban bus ridership. TTC is a system, and a grid-based system at that, so routes depend on other routes to be useful. That's why they call it a system I guess...

LRT would be great on Sheppard West, or better yet, an extension of the Sheppard Subway (Line 4) to Downsview. Oftentimes I see full buses in the morning that skip over stops because the bus is full. There is also an express route from Sheppard-Yonge Station to York University that runs along Sheppard. It would be nice to see something that is separate from traffic on Sheppard West, which sometimes can get congested around Bathurst. At a bare minimum, articulated buses on the 84 route would help.

That said the bus service along Sheppard West is good during the summer, but starting in September when high school and university students start using the TTC in the morning, it gets fuller and less reliable.

[swimmer_spe]

Rt stands for Rapid Transit. Some say that certain things are not for 1 reason or another. Below, I list the various cities, and the various "RT" that exists. I will also say why it is RT.

Vancouver
Skytrain - It is RT because it is grade separated and it moves at faster overall speeds than traffic.

Nelson BC
Nelson Electric Tramway - RT. Although it is less than 2km long.

Calgary
CTrain - RT. It is grade separated. Traffic must yield to the train.

Edmonton
Edmonton LRT - RT, it is grade separated. Traffic must yield to the train.

Whitehorse
Whitehorse Waterfront Trolley - RT, it is 2km.

Winnipeg
Winnipeg RT - RT, it uses lanes that are reserved for buses. Even though buses come in and out, while on it, they are RT

York Region
Viva RT - Parts are RT. They are working on converting the entire system to RT.

Brampton
Zum - sort of RT It uses stops that are spaced further apart.

Waterloo

Ion - RT, Regular vehicular traffic will not ride on the line.

Mississauga
Transitway - RT, Same as all the others.

Toronto
Subways - Yes
SRT - Yes
Streetcars (route numbered 5xx)
03, 05, 06, 11 - Not RT
01, 02, 04, - Parts are RT, parts run on grade separated ROW
09, 10, 12 - RT, All run on Grade separated ROW
Crosstown - RT, it will be grade separated.

Ottawa
O-Train - RT. Both the Trillium Confederation lines are grade separated.
Transitway - RT, Even though buses come in and out, while on it, they are RT

Gatineau
Rapidbus - RT, Runs in it's own ROW.

Montreal
Metro - Yes

Halifax
MetroLink - Sort off RT. Does not run on its own ROW, but stops are spaced out quite far.
MetroExpress - Same as MetroLink.

Durham Region
DRT Pulse - Sort of. It has less stops than normal buses.

Saskatoon
DART - Sort of. Same as above.

Of the Top 15 CMAs in terms of population, only London, Hamilton, Quebec City and St Catherines area do not have any sort of RT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_census_metropolitan_areas_and_agglomerations_in_Canada

London, Quebec City and Hamilton have plans for BRT/LRT.

15
Victoria - Talks but nothing.
Highway 1 LRT and the E&N Railway are proposed.

16
Windsor - Nothing yet

18
Regina - Nothing so far

19
Sherbrooke - Nothing so far

20
St John's Newfoundland - Nothing so far

Of the top 10, Quebec City is the only city not actually building one, yet.

Have I missed any?

Thoughts?

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Rt stands for Rapid Transit. Some say that certain things are not for 1 reason or another. Below, I list the various cities, and the various "RT" that exists. I will also say why it is RT.

Vancouver
Skytrain - It is RT because it is grade separated and it moves at faster overall speeds than traffic.

Nelson BC
Nelson Electric Tramway - RT. Although it is less than 2km long.

Calgary
CTrain - RT. It is grade separated. Traffic must yield to the train.

Edmonton
Edmonton LRT - RT, it is grade separated. Traffic must yield to the train.

Whitehorse
Whitehorse Waterfront Trolley - RT, it is 2km.

Winnipeg
Winnipeg RT - RT, it uses lanes that are reserved for buses. Even though buses come in and out, while on it, they are RT

York Region
Viva RT - Parts are RT. They are working on converting the entire system to RT.

Brampton
Zum - sort of RT It uses stops that are spaced further apart.

Waterloo

Ion - RT, Regular vehicular traffic will not ride on the line.

Mississauga
Transitway - RT, Same as all the others.

Toronto
Subways - Yes
SRT - Yes
Streetcars (route numbered 5xx)
03, 05, 06, 11 - Not RT
01, 02, 04, - Parts are RT, parts run on grade separated ROW
09, 10, 12 - RT, All run on Grade separated ROW
Crosstown - RT, it will be grade separated.

Ottawa
O-Train - RT. Both the Trillium Confederation lines are grade separated.
Transitway - RT, Even though buses come in and out, while on it, they are RT

Gatineau
Rapidbus - RT, Runs in it's own ROW.

Montreal
Metro - Yes

Halifax
MetroLink - Sort off RT. Does not run on its own ROW, but stops are spaced out quite far.
MetroExpress - Same as MetroLink.

Durham Region
DRT Pulse - Sort of. It has less stops than normal buses.

Saskatoon
DART - Sort of. Same as above.

Of the Top 15 CMAs in terms of population, only London, Hamilton, Quebec City and St Catherines area do not have any sort of RT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_census_metropolitan_areas_and_agglomerations_in_Canada

London, Quebec City and Hamilton have plans for BRT/LRT.

15
Victoria - Talks but nothing.
Highway 1 LRT and the E&N Railway are proposed.

16
Windsor - Nothing yet

18
Regina - Nothing so far

19
Sherbrooke - Nothing so far

20
St John's Newfoundland - Nothing so far

Of the top 10, Quebec City is the only city not actually building one, yet.

Have I missed any?

Thoughts?

I don't think any of the ones you listed apart from Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto are RT... It's not because traffic has to yield that it is grade-separated. As a matter of fact, the fact that it is mixed with traffic is the very definition of not being grade-separated.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

I don't think any of the ones you listed apart from Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto are RT... It's not because traffic has to yield that it is grade-separated. As a matter of fact, the fact that it is mixed with traffic is the very definition of not being grade-separated.

So, if there is a crossing, that makes it not RT?

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, if there is a crossing, that makes it not RT?

Yes, but there are exceptions (the Chicago L has a few crossings). The Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa systems are typical light rail (Ottawa is grade-separated but the low-floor Alstom Citadis Spirit is designed for light rail). The rest are just regular systems. To me, bus rapid transit does not qualify as rapid transit (even though it is included in the name) although it is significantly faster than normal bus routes. Tramways and cablecars are definitely not RT.

The biggest question I ask concerning grade-separation is: can there be obstruction by vehicle traffic? If the answer is yes, then it's not RT.

Note: LRT means light rail transit, so a system called "Edmonton LRT" cannot be qualified as RT, as mentioned in the name...