Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes, francophone Monctonians are a truly oppressed minority.

But Anglophones in Québec are ???

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Compared to the large francophone university in Moncton, anglophone Monctonians (the majority) have to put up with a tiny 800 student private religious university (Crandall University), which forces you to attend chapel every day, has a very strict Christian moral code (not a friendly environment for gays etc), and has rudimentary programs and no affiliation with the Maritime Provinces Higher Education Council. The only substantive program they have is an education faculty (designed to produce morally upright graduates to guide the tender minds of the provinces youth).

This is why we want secularism in Québec, but apparently that makes us bigoted too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The Anglo community, writ large, makes these comparisons? Holy smearing an entire group due to the actions of a tiny lunatic fringe, Batman!!

I can understand why you and Brisavoine feel entitled to hold court in this thread.

This week Amazon introduced a marker for Québec products on its website. It was immediately deluged with hostile messages and people saying now they know which products NOT to buy. All messages in English. Most seemingly from Québec.

Aside from the irony that these people depend on Québec services paid for by tax revenue from Québec products in large part, the reaction is completely insane.

(I have never seen a comparable massive call for a boycott of ROC products simply because they are from the ROC.)

Anyway it's not entirely new. The same crowd went completely nuts in 2012 when Pauline Marois of the PQ was elected Premier.

Unfortunately there was also an assassination attempt on her by Richard Henry Bain that led to the death of a poor innocent guy and the lifelong disability of another.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

These sorts of initiatives can only push the OUI vote a few percentage points up. These people are really stupid. Or perhaps they just take Québec for granted at this point and don't seriously imagine that the province could ever secede.

Now that it’s been in the news a bit and I’ve heard what their arguments are, I can confirm your bolded part is right. The legal basis is extraordinarily weak.

I could do the exact same thing as them and take the government to court over the fact it’s attempting (and succeeding, for now) to tax a portion of my income, invoking the charter of rights and freedoms as they do: when the government takes some of lio45’s money, it causes harm to him, deprives him of the potential comforts he could acquire with that money if he didn’t have to send it to Quebec City and Ottawa.

[Acajack]

You'd actually have more of a point than they do. You are talking about *your* money.

They on the other hand want *other* people's money to pay for people from other provinces to come and study at their university.

Originally Posted by lio45

Now that it’s been in the news a bit and I’ve heard what their arguments are, I can confirm your bolded part is right. The legal basis is extraordinarily weak.

I could do the exact same thing as them and take the government to court over the fact it’s attempting (and succeeding, for now) to tax a portion of my income, invoking the charter of rights and freedoms as they do: when the government takes some of lio45’s money, it causes harm to him, deprives him of the potential comforts he could acquire with that money if he didn’t have to send it to Quebec City and Ottawa.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You'd actually have more of a point than they do. You are talking about *your* money.

They on the other hand want *other* people's money to pay for people from other provinces to come and study at their university.

My point is that there should be no such thing as "in province" and "out of province" fees. We are all one country. Differential fees helps to promote provincialism and parochialism, things that are far too common in Canada as is. Out of province students can actually be good for the economy. They spend money. I'm sure the merchants and landlords in the communities hosting these universities appreciate this.

It was not like this when I went to university in the 70s and 80s.

In any event, I have decided to take another prolonged break from this thread. It is bad for my mental health. I believe in a strong, united and indivisible Canada from sea to sea to sea. My Canada would be destined to be a true player in the world. Some people on this thread obviously do not believe in this vision, and their world view is governed entirely by linguistic politics and nothing else. You cannot debate these people. They have no interest in other people's visions or concerns.

Acajack & lio45 are at least interested in debate, but others are more shit disturbers. New Brisavoine is an agent provacateur pure and simple, and, sometimes he is able to appeal to Acajack's baser instincts, which is sad. He also brings out the worst in me.

Anyway, I feel further attempted debate is futile, and potentially inflammatory. There is no sense continuing. I will spend my time more productively elsewhere.

Adios amigos...........

[lio45]

Canada is a confederation created by several entities, it’s normal that it’s not “united and uniform and indivisible from sea to sea” and never should be.

If Poland and Germany merged into a single political entity for whatever good reason (supported by majorities in both countries), the resulting new country would be bicultural, and it would be close to culturally genocidal to wish for it to become monocultural, don’t you agree?

(Having said that, the Austrian Empire was a good real life example of my point.)

[lio45]

Also, to address your point, you’re advocating for education to become federal in scope, so basically you’d like to erase the provinces and have Canada be one single entity that has uniform healthcare, taxation, social services, education, etc. everywhere.

It’s a view that indeed has some merit and some advantages, however it’s NEVER going to happen to all of Canada’s current territory. After Quebec becomes its own country though, the RoC can abolish its nine provinces and three territories and merge them — if there’s majority support for that idea at the time, which is at least possible, unlike when Quebec is part of it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The same crowd went completely nuts in 2012 when Pauline Marois of the PQ was elected Premier.

Because of her weak English?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

My point is that there should be no such thing as "in province" and "out of province" fees.

That cannot work if one province decides to keep low fees, whereas all other provinces raise fees and end up having high fees. That province would soon be flooded with out-of-province students. That may not be a problem in the ROC (Anglophones from outside the province coming to another Anglophone province), but it would be obviously a major issue in Québec, as very soon their universities would be flooded with Anglophone students.

But then again, that supposes that you and the other people who comment on this accept the fact Québec remains a Francophone society.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

maîtres chez nous.

Impressive crystal ball!

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...tres-chez-nous

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Because of her weak English?

Because of the whole package: PQ politician, weak English, not sympathetic to the cause of Quebec Anglos.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...tres-chez-nous

Someone will have to explain to me why "party" is masculine in the franglais of Québec...

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Impressive crystal ball!

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...tres-chez-nous

About the subject of your article, there was a similar op-ed in Le Devoir earlier this week.

I'm translating a few bits:

Taking back control of our future

Le Devoir
February 19, 2024

https://www.ledevoir.com/opinion/lib...otre-destinee?

The independence [support] is at its highest in 10 years. At 41% in favor of independence, we're reaching a level of support similar to the one in the beginning of 1995.

What the Non camp doesn't seem to have factored in is the fact that in 2026 more than 57% of the Québec population will never have had the opportunity to express themselves on independence. As a matter of fact, all Quebeckers aged 48 and under will be having their first referendum experience [if a new referendum takes place]. How can we confiscate from these citizens the possibility of voting on independence without it becoming an intergenerational injustice and, above all, a democratic injustice?

Many of us under 46 y/o see what Canada had in store for Québec after the Non victory in 1995: linguistic and cultural decline, underfunding of health, non-respect of Québec's jurisdiction, the lack of respect for the democratic will of Québec on fundamental issues such as the environment, culture, or immigration, among others.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

My point is that there should be no such thing as "in province" and "out of province" fees. We are all one country. Differential fees helps to promote provincialism and parochialism, things that are far too common in Canada as is.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That cannot work if one province decides to keep low fees, whereas all other provinces raise fees and end up having high fees. That province would soon be flooded with out-of-province students. That may not be a problem in the ROC (Anglophones from outside the province coming to another Anglophone province), but it would be obviously a major issue in Québec, as very soon their universities would be flooded with Anglophone students.

New Brisavoine explains exactly why we need provinces and why they should have different fees if they chose to. In Québec, we chose to have much lower universities fees to reduce the gap in diplomation with the ROC. It is working.
But if we let students from other provinces come here and only pay those smaller fees, we would be flooded and we would be subsidizing students with our higher taxes and those students will go back to their home provinces to work and pay lower taxes that their province could afford because 1) they chose not subsidize universities as much and 2) because Québec would be paying for a big chunk of their students' higher education.

The only way that Québec would be able to lower the cost of universities would be to top the admissions to a certain number of students. That would put English speaking students from Québec at a disadvantage because out of province students would be taking their place. They could always try to go to other provinces, but they would have to pay the higher local fees. And of course, if Anglophones in Québec can't have access to higher education because of out of province students, Québec will be called racist (but no one would blame the other provinces for their higher fees that drive there students to Québec...). And if francophones universities are not as flooded with out of provinces students, and French-speaking Québécois have a better access to universities, could you imagine the outrage in Canada?

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

New Brisavoine explains exactly why we need provinces and why they should have different fees if they chose to. In Québec, we chose to have much lower universities fees to reduce the gap in diplomation with the ROC. It is working.
But if we let students from other provinces come here and only pay those smaller fees, we would be flooded and we would be subsidizing students with our higher taxes and those students will go back to their home provinces to work and pay lower taxes that their province could afford because 1) they chose not subsidize universities as much and 2) because Québec would be paying for a big chunk of their students' higher education.

Are you under the impression that out-of-province students in Quebec are paying the same tuition fees as Quebec students? They aren't. They're many times higher. And they're already among the highest in Canada.

Average undergraduate tuition at McGill, before the hikes:

Quebec students – $2,391
Canadian students – $7,402
International students – $29,200

Compare that for an undergraduate degree at UBC:

Canadian students – $5,646
International students – $38,946

UofT:

Canadian students – $6,590
International students – $45,690

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Are you under the impression that out-of-province students in Quebec are paying the same tuition fees as Quebec students?

No, I am not. I was responding to MonctonRad saying he wished there were no such things as "in province" and "out of province" fees. My exemple was describing what would happen if the fees you demonstrated did not exist.

[Kilgore Trout]

Sorry, my mistake!

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Exactly.

Thank you for making the point in a somewhat more subtle fashion than I did.

One can be Anglo in Quebec. Talk with one's family at home in English. Watch/read whatever English media one wants.

In public? The calculus changes. There's an element of yielding to the majority that goes hat-in-hand with living in a place. Want to live in Germany permanently? Lernen Sie Deutsch zu sprechen. Yeah man, they lost the war. It's still their country.

Just because one had a historical claim under force doesn't mean that it persists when reality says otherwise. That whole 'democracy' bit, and all. Sure, nobody was going to expect the first few decades of reality coming to roost to be pleasant, but hey, history did what it did. At least Anglos had the choice of nine other provinces in which they could happily converse in their native tongue. Everyone knows the score now and would be a fool to think otherwise.

'Protecting' this minority who just refuses to yield to the reality of Quebec is just such a hopeless cause that serves no real purpose except to twist a knife. Part of the relative amicability of the past couple of decades has been the fact the the lines have become clearer with respect with language.

Maybe if one wanted to really learn about the much vaunted multiculturalism we so dearly claim to love we could do so here, because the conversations about the benefits/downsides of immigration and protecting our value-add industries were coming out of Quebec before the rest of the country got a clue. Better to have the ugly conversation and learn from inside as opposed to picking up the pieces afterwards.

Anyway, thanks for harls for living the Two Solitudes. Even if he's out in the boonies of Aylmer (former Ottawa resident here)

My sentiments exactly Reminds me of my recent conversation with extended family in Montreal. She was pissed off a loud but vocal minority of Angryphones keep stirring the pot, especially the lot of ex-Quebecers who now resent being 'exiled' to the most bland and boring exburbs of the GTA and Southern Ontario. She just doesn't get why these Angryphones are so obtuse that they can't pick up a second language. Especially amongst younger anglophones, they don't see the point about being antagonistic against embracing French as the common language.

She grew up under English institutions (English CEGEP, McGill), but built a career in Montreal by being bilingual, and it opened more doors for her than moving down the 401 to Toronto (and her current lifestyle is also a lot better than what Toronto could offer). Her kids now go to French school, and on balance she has more close francophone friends than anglo now. She also has absolutely zero worry that her kids will be fully fluent in English as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Because of the whole package: PQ politician, weak English, not sympathetic to the cause of Quebec Anglos.

The Marois government was a minority and came after several years of anglo-friendly Liberal governments.

It's scary to think how these people might react to a PSPP PQ government which looks like it would be a majority. Plus it would come on the heels of the CAQ which is also driving anglos nuts.

Imagine being a Quebec Anglo and hating the CAQ with a passion, and realizing that the only realistic alternative for another government is... the PQ.