ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[scania]

Originally Posted by clexmond

Don't worry, their complete lack of anything resembling a grid network will catch up with them soon enough and much of the development will have to shift to Midtown and Downtown. I just recently read an article discussing the awful performance of the retail component of Terminus in Buckhead due to the excessive traffic along Piedmont / Peachtree in the area.

I wouldn't be too confident in that thought process. Midtown, Buckhead, and Perimeter, as well as O4W are all growing. There are successful and unsuccessful businesses in all areas. I've always said that I love that the city is growing as a whole. No matter which sub-district is your choice, Atlanta, IMO would loose its vibe as being and becoming a big city if the focus on growth was only in Midtown and or Downtown. As far as the article about Terminus...there are articles that would say that starting a retail business in Midtown would be a bad idea. Point, being there are similar articles that have the same ending about every area in Atlanta.

[trainiac]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

The more I noodle it, the more the Ivan Allen location seems a no-brainer. As someone pointed out the available surface area is much larger, providing for adequate parking and tailgating. The surface street connections to the Connector etc. are greatly improved by use of Ivan Allen Blvd., North Ave., Northside Dr. Both N/S and E/W MARTA stations are easy walking distance, meaning there is no need for a line transfer. The many existing venues already in the area will receive much more foot traffic during events and will encourage further development.

Yeah, I was all for the south location just because I thought Vine City would be improved (such potential!) but the fact that they haven't stepped up to pressure these two congregations into selling (I mean, how many parishioners do they have combined? 200?) means they don't really care. So, whatever.

Walking from Civic Center would be a little over a half mile and from Dome station would be more like a mile. I guess those are both do-able and it's certainly closer to the N/S line. Cannot believe they turned down over $20 million -- idiots. Hope they enjoy their surface-lot future

This is going to an amazing facility. Cannot wait to watch it grow

[clexmond]

Originally Posted by scania

I wouldn't be too confident in that thought process. Midtown, Buckhead, and Perimeter, as well as O4W are all growing. There are successful and unsuccessful businesses in all areas. I've always said that I love that the city is growing as a whole. No matter which sub-district is your choice, Atlanta, IMO would loose its vibe as being and becoming a big city if the focus on growth was only in Midtown and or Downtown. As far as the article about Terminus...there are articles that would say that starting a retail business in Midtown would be a bad idea. Point, being there are similar articles that have the same ending about every area in Atlanta.

Let me clarify my thought process some. I think it's great that our disparate neighborhoods continue to grow, but I think that due to the existing state of the infrastructure in and around Buckhead and Perimeter there is a lower growth cap which I feel is being reached.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by ChrisInmanPark

Some new details on the Inman park 280 Elizabeth Street project like a timeline for completion.

http://www.atlantaintownpaper.com/2013/06/new-apartments-retail-coming-to-inman-park/

This is easily my 2nd favorite project in the city behind PCM, and 3rd being Elan. Some may disagree, but I'll state it again - if Atlanta is confined on the quality of its projects by the rent the market can support, 280 Elizabeth and Elan Westside clearly stretch that limit and are undeniably a cut above all of the other infill apartment projects going up. I see a clear architectural difference in terms of quality (these projects might be a "dime a dozen" minus the garage aspect in a city like SF, but in Atlanta they are a cut above the traditional stucco with painted accent apartments...or the faux brick such as at Buckhead Village). I also think while not pedestrian friendly, the proposed 27 story apartment tower in Buckhead far surpasses the architectural quality of the towers going up in Midtown, and for probably the same cost better conceals its deck (Chicago style, a typically more expensive construction aspect that I've advocated for Midtown Atlanta).

BTW, the larger renderings from that link:

Originally Posted by clexmond

Let me clarify my thought process some. I think it's great that our disparate neighborhoods continue to grow, but I think that due to the existing state of the infrastructure in and around Buckhead and Perimeter there is a lower growth cap which I feel is being reached.

I agree with your thought. Having worked in Buckhead and having had to make it up there to see friends, it's HORRIBLE. There is nothing the city can really do to improve the infrastructure up there. The ramps to I-85N from 400S will maybe make somewhat of a difference in clearing cars, but overall, Buckhead is the epitome of a complete clusterfuck and even if by magic MARTA becomes useful, it will have limited use in Buckhead due to the way everything is laid out. Perimeter is arguably worse than Buckhead in terms of traffic and infrastructure limitations. There will quickly become a boiling point - as an employee, I would be frustrated to have to work in either place (I also interned during college up in Perimter, so technically have worked in both areas). DT still has a ways to go, but Midtown has better infrastructure and more available land and more desirability overall and I foresee it becoming *the* spot to develop within 10 years.

[TothebackofPhipps]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Fuck those churches. So they think they are too important to bulldoze. BUT $26M might make them less historically important.

Build on the other site. They have every right to forgo millions. Let them.

ATLaffinity, you SOB. I just read your post and peed a little. By the way, I like you anger!

[whiterabbit]

Originally Posted by clexmond

Let me clarify my thought process some. I think it's great that our disparate neighborhoods continue to grow, but I think that due to the existing state of the infrastructure in and around Buckhead and Perimeter there is a lower growth cap which I feel is being reached.

Not sure I agree with this. Buckhead has a ton of potential from Termius to Lennox. Plus they are building the new Marta Bridge right now and just got funding for the first stage of the trail between Buckhead and Perimeter. If Buckhead can create safe crosswalks then they will be on a roll.

Honestly I think all areas on the Marta are going to benefit and grow massively.

[whiterabbit]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Fuck those churches. So they think they are too important to bulldoze. BUT $26M might make them less historically important.

Build on the other site. They have every right to forgo millions. Let them.

So true, total hypocrites like most churches just after money. The city should pull eminant domain on them and give them what they are worth. About 500k total.

[scania]

Originally Posted by whiterabbit

Not sure I agree with this. Buckhead has a ton of potential from Termius to Lennox. Plus they are building the new Marta Bridge right now and just got funding for the first stage of the trail between Buckhead and Perimeter. If Buckhead can create safe crosswalks then they will be on a roll.

Honestly I think all areas on the Marta are going to benefit and grow massively.

Wow. Finally someone who isn't so one sided. And can also, see the big picture.

[Libertarian]

Yeah, I was all for the south location just because I thought Vine City would be improved (such potential!) but the fact that they haven't stepped up to pressure these two congregations into selling (I mean, how many parishioners do they have combined? 200?) means they don't really care. So, whatever.

In terms of Westside development including Vine City, the north location makes a lot more sense because it's actually directly east of some of the worst impacted 'hoods that need major improvement, whereas the south location is just east of the Atlanta University Center which is already well-developed and seeing improvements anyway. In terms of the Gulch, yes the south location would for sure be better for eventual development of that area.

[clexmond]

Originally Posted by whiterabbit

Not sure I agree with this. Buckhead has a ton of potential from Termius to Lennox. Plus they are building the new Marta Bridge right now and just got funding for the first stage of the trail between Buckhead and Perimeter. If Buckhead can create safe crosswalks then they will be on a roll.

Honestly I think all areas on the Marta are going to benefit and grow massively.

What space is there even left to redevelop in that corridor? The strip mall across Peachtree from Terminus and Dante's seems to be about it.

[Tuckerman]

Originally Posted by clexmond

What space is there even left to redevelop in that corridor? The strip mall across Peachtree from Terminus and Dante's seems to be about it.

Theere is a lot of space left. All the space that was the container shop up to the Intercontinental is easy to develop for high rise along with all the area where the rooms to go is and the Kroger. Plenty of space.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East

Not sure if this has been posted, but there are some amazing designs and project details. I just hope it's build on Northside and Ivan Allen so there's plenty of space around it. Meanwhile, I don't see a better way to spend $200 million in tourism tax revenue that will pay dividends like this new stadium. Revenue from boosted tourism could fund some of the projects I've heard that should have received the $200M (not $500M, wherever the hell that number came from...)

New Atlanta Stadium

I like the new designs. I grew to prefer the Pantheon-style design over Solarium design. It seems with the latest designs, they are attempting to incorporate the airiness elements of the Solarium design into that of Pantheon design. I like the description that was used by one of the principals of the design team that they are attempting build 'an open building that closes instead of an closed building that opens'.

[66native]

I totally agree with you Joecool and Simms.
I understand that basically any development anywhere in the city is usually a good thing but I just personally don't get that excited about these highrise tower projects in Buckhead and the rest of the edge cities because they lack decent street grids. it's really hard to experience these buildings at street level the way that you should. Simms is right, Buckhead for one is a major "clusterf__k". I would probably feel some better about such developments if Downtown and Midtown were "full" but they're not. Buckhead and the rest of the edge cities might create great skylines but virtually no street level urban experience.

[scania]

Originally Posted by 66native

I totally agree with you Joecool and Simms.
I just personally don't get that excited about these highrise tower projects in Buckhead and the rest of the edge cities because they lack decent street grids. it's really hard to experience these buildings at street level the way that you should Buckhead and the rest of the edge cities might create great skylines but virtually no street level urban experience.

This is Atlanta. Lets be real, the street level experience of these highrise buildings are basically all on Peachtree. You basically experience the same thing with these buildings in Buckhead and Midtown. If you are comparing an urban street level experience such as a NY or San Fran. There's absolutely nothing in Midtown and or Buckhead that is close.

[NYC2ATX]

Originally Posted by whiterabbit

Not sure I agree with this. Buckhead has a ton of potential from Termius to Lennox. Plus they are building the new Marta Bridge right now and just got funding for the first stage of the trail between Buckhead and Perimeter. If Buckhead can create safe crosswalks then they will be on a roll.

Honestly I think all areas on the Marta are going to benefit and grow massively.

I see where you're coming from as well. The lack of a uniform grid in Buckhead and Perimeter...and pretty much anywhere outside of the core of intown Atlanta...is not as much of a detriment to development as you might think. What it boils down to, as you and I believe someone else said, is walkability.

Consider that the oldest (and arguably densest) part of Lower Manhattan does not have the grid system that Midtown and all districts above 14th Street have, but the walkable streets and abundance of transit options make it a viable district for business and development.

Yes, the transit options in Atlanta leave a lot to be desired, but any area can be tweaked in small (or not-so-small) ways to create a walkable district. The fact that Buckhead has developed as much as it already has against logical odds is evidence enough.

And if doubt remains, consider what they've done in nearly all DC's satellite cities (most around Metro stops) and what they plan to do in Tysons Corner with the coming of the Silver Line Metro. The way I see it, if it can be done there, it can be done pretty much anywhere.

[clexmond]

Originally Posted by StatenIslander237

I see where you're coming from as well. The lack of a uniform grid in Buckhead and Perimeter...and pretty much anywhere outside of the core of intown Atlanta...is not as much of a detriment to development as you might think. What it boils down to, as you and I believe someone else said, is walkability.

Consider that the oldest (and arguably densest) part of Lower Manhattan does not have the grid system that Midtown and all districts above 14th Street have, but the walkable streets and abundance of transit options make it a viable district for business and development.

Yes, the transit options in Atlanta leave a lot to be desired, but any area can be tweaked in small (or not-so-small) ways to create a walkable district. The fact that Buckhead has developed as much as it already has against logical odds is evidence enough.

And if doubt remains, consider what they've done in nearly all DC's satellite cities (most around Metro stops) and what they plan to do in Tysons Corner with the coming of the Silver Line Metro. The way I see it, if it can be done there, it can be done pretty much anywhere.

My point again in images which were all taken at the same zoom in Google Maps:


Buckhead focusing on the area with transit access. I've outlined a few of the superblocks to make them more obvious. In each of these cases there's no way to drive across any of them beyond cutting through parking lots or private parking access roads (in the case of tower place these are conveniently closed during rush hour). Yes some of these could be retrofitted with better grids, but considering the level of development already in place that seems pretty unlikely in the short and medium term.


Lower Manhattan's streets aren't a strict grid but they do maintain a generally small block size with a lot of crossing streets and the ability to get from point A to point B in a lot of different ways.


Same with Midtown Atlanta which while having a slightly larger block size than lower Manhattan provides plenty of alternative routing options.

You can point out all you want that the pedestrian experience in Midtown / Downtown isn't the same as NY city, and of course you're right. But let's not pretend that means that it's the same as Buckhead either. Super-blocks are bad for traffic, they force all vehicles onto 6+ lane roads on their perimeters which subsequently makes for a poor pedestrian / biking experience.

[scania]

Originally Posted by clexmond

My point again in images which were all taken at the same zoom in Google Maps:


Buckhead focusing on the area with transit access. I've outlined a few of the superblocks to make them more obvious. In each of these cases there's no way to drive across any of them beyond cutting through parking lots or private parking access roads (in the case of tower place these are conveniently closed during rush hour). Yes some of these could be retrofitted with better grids, but considering the level of development already in place that seems pretty unlikely in the short and medium term.


Lower Manhattan's streets aren't a strict grid but they do maintain a generally small block size with a lot of crossing streets and the ability to get from point A to point B in a lot of different ways.


Same with Midtown Atlanta which while having a slightly larger block size than lower Manhattan provides plenty of alternative routing options.

You can point out all you want that the pedestrian experience in Midtown / Downtown isn't the same as NY city, and of course you're right. But let's not pretend that means that it's the same as Buckhead either. Super-blocks are bad for traffic, they force all vehicles onto 6+ lane roads on their perimeters which subsequently makes for a poor pedestrian / biking experience.

Here again...people do not read. I said the way the high rise buildings address the street are the same.

[simms3_redux]

^^This may be true, to a degree. My experience after working in Buckhead (in Terminus) was that part of Peachtree on one side is walkable, kind of. But considering most dining destinations either required a crossing of Peachtree, Piedmont, or the exit for Terminus and Tower Place onto Piedmont, walkable is highly relative in Buckhead. Just to go next door to Rusan's or Farm Burger, you either have a cop protecting you (because it's so bad in that area, intersections need one all the time), or you take your life in your own hands. My local Starbucks was a drive through (as was Caribou - you won't find a drive through coffee chain in Midtown, and sadly you won't find a good coffee shop in either place)...I always walked from the building, but again, it required a walk across Piedmont into a shopping center parking lot during rush hour with a drive through line wrapping around the lot - there would be 1-2 other daredevils like myself attempting the walk. My friend worked in Phipps Plaza at the time, and I had another in 3344 P'tree (he was easy to meet - basically your two options were Nikko or F2O). My Phipps friend always had to drive to meet me (and anyone who has tried parking in Terminus garage knows it's a mutherflipping PITA...even though it's like 10+ stories). He was boxed in by congested boulevards and highway on-ramps and his option was the mall.

This is not even discussing the fact that Buckhead is served by 400, a tolled limited access highway with some of the worst traffic in the country, and MARTA is useless now with the constant budget cuts, the 20 minute headways at minimum, the Lindbergh transfers, the single-tracking all the time, the screens that don't work, the difficulty of most people even being able to easily get to the station, which is above a 6 lane highway, etc etc.

This is also not mentioning the fact that Buckhead's restaurant scene has really been overtaken by the scenes closer into town or in Decatur and that the bar scene is now dominated by suburbanites and UGA alum, so if you're not either...well you're probably not totally satisfied.

In my opinion, without touting how much better Midtown already is than Buckhead, how now it seems to be a real attraction to young professionals working in Midtown and/or moving from other cities (I don't think MT really was when I was living there - it was frustrating), etc, clearly there is more opportunity in Midtown. It's also better connected to Va-Highlands, Inman Park, Decatur, the Westside, DT, the airport (though again - still requires MARTA which has caused me to miss a flight even from MT), etc etc. I had a coworker who lived right off of Monroe near Piedmont Park - hell for him to get to Buckhead. I lived in 1280 West at the time and could hop on W. Peachtree/Buford Highway up Piedmont - still took ~25-45 minutes if I didn't leave before 7:30, and I'm NOT a AM person...we're talking 5 miles? Others coming in from 75 through W. Paces Ferry (who wants to spend millions to live on THAT road?!?), or coming in from 85 up in Gwinnett, or shit, coming in from 400S in North Fulton - that's a commute from hell!!! Buckhead is inaccessible and has limited development opportunity beyond what's being built. The streets can't be expanded and can't handle current traffic, and MARTA is useless. It's reaching its tipping point. Even Perimeter has more opportunity, though I would rather kill myself than work there if I didn't live there (and I wouldn't live there). Vinings is even worse.

[jnihiser]

Moving on...to construction photos....

This is the Walton Project in Marietta. I'm sort of surprised that no one else has snapped a few pictures of this before now...this is a HUGE residential project.
Here is a link to additional info and PICTURES of this project...http://www.waltoncommunities.com/walton-communities/walton-riverwood-home/walton-riverwood

[atlantaguy]

^Wow, that popped up pretty fast (to me, anyway).

Thanks for posting this, jnihiser.