Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Comrade]

It's also disengaged because the property has zero engagement with the area. Many arenas nowadays have restaurants, shops and bars built into at least one portion and have 'em front the street. With the plaza, you could even have outdoor seating and some pretty fine dining options - especially since now they're moving more eatery options in with the renovation. None of that exists at the Viv. Zero. The only thing that fronts the outside is that Fanzz and it's not going to be near the driving force to bring people into the area.

Look. I get there's a tribalism with many on this forum to defend everything Salt Lake but you're all going to lose this battle. It just is what it is. If this was the library, yeah, I'd go to the mat for it and say it's one of the nicest libraries, especially modern libraries in the nation. I'd say the same with the City-County Building or either of our old train depots.

This is not a winning battle. You'll not find many out there who'll defend the architecture of this arena. It's not bold. It's not innovative. It's not interactive. It's lackluster. The ONLY thing the Viv has going for it is that it's pretty bare bones and extremely practical.

That's fine. For a NBA arena, I guess, that's just fine. But to pretend its got elegance and is one of the nicest looking arenas in the league just reeks of homerism.

[delts145]

Comrade, as far as the arena design itself most simply disagree as far as what is being pointed at in named and pictured examples of what is aesthetically attractive. People are not disagreeing with a need for the Center to be surrounded by more options. Again, the need for surrounding options are not in question, it's the look/design/aesthetic appearance of the options that are in question. Most local forumers would agree that the physical design of the Phoenix arena and building designs of the activity options that surround it are a bit of a hot mess. No one is questioning the need for the services that the buildings in the Phoenix complex provides. Also, many of the arenas that have been pictured as examples, while perhaps great for pre and post game activity, are not of a design that is an attractive fit for Salt Lake's downtown. No one is disagreeing that they could better use parts of Vivints same block/Plaza itself. Perhaps, something of the same stone and look as the current center could have at least been taken right up to one of the corners on the plaza. A structure that is separate from the arena. Something that abuts a part of So. Temple, but engages the street attractively. It would be no more than two stories, and it's inward face would offer additional attractions, such as indoor/outdoor dining. If future developments at Gateway, and the surrounding blocks aren't more than enough to satisfy fans, there's no reason they couldn't make future additions to the Plaza. As long as the exterior structural designs don't resemble anything like Phoenix.

I'm very grateful for the many outstanding developments the LDS hierarchy has added to the downtown area. They are world class, and it goes without saying that the downtown would be much less of a downtown without them.

However, I do think it's time that those So. Temple parking lots were dealt with, at least in part. If they can do what they've done all over the world lately, especially in places like Philadelphia, then coming up with subterranean parking to fit current and some future needs is not too much to ask for the hometown headquarters. After all, as many are aware, the existing subterranean parking under the LDS properties in the heart of the city are a marvel. The same commitment needs to be at least partially applied to the S. Temple lots. We're not talking the entire sq. footage of the blocks, but several levels of subterranean in one or two sections of the blocks makes up for a lot of surface area. At the surface, some creative temporary place holders with green and exhibition space, or whatever is currently needed for the surface activity would also not be too much to ask for at this critical juncture of the city's CBD growth. At least until they're ready for more permanent developments to use up the space. Right now, given Salt Lake's current needs I find the So. Temple parking lots as very low bar and intolerable for a long list of reasons. More so than the once upon a time Sugar Hole. And at the very least there was a strong foot put down in Sugar House to make it temporarily tolerable, while development went through it's process.

[ajiuO]

I’m kind of curious. Who is it that decided to start referring to the block between 200W&300W and 500N&600N as “The Marmalade Block”? That’s really annoying to me because that block is not even in the Marmalde District. I grew up in “The West Capital” area (That’s what we called it)... specifically in the strip of land between 200W&300W. We never, ever, ever, ever referred to ourselves as being part of the marmalade district. In fact the people in The Marmalade district would have laughed us out of the park if we had even suggested such a thing.

The area between North Temple - Warmsprings Park & 300W - Columbus St was the West capital area. Anything west of 300W was “The West Side”. The Marmalade District was a very small portion of the hill above Washington Elementary.... All official website still list that same area as The Marmalde District... even to this day. So what gives?

This is The Marmalade District. Sometimes people a little bit outside of that area would fold themselves in to that area... but never anything past 200 west... now it seems like it’s everything past 200 west trying to capitalize on somthing that they are not a part of.

[stayinginformed]

For the same reason you can find "Sugar House Bungalows" around 900 S East of 700 East on realty websites. Up and coming neighborhood names expand as people want to say they are in a cool area. Marmalade sounds way nicer than West Capitol.

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I’m kind of curious. Who is it that decided to start referring to the block between 200W&300W and 500N&600N as “The Marmalade Block”? That’s really annoying to me because that block is not even in the Marmalde District. I grew up in “The West Capital” area (That’s what we called it)... specifically in the strip of land between 200W&300W. We never, ever, ever, ever referred to ourselves as being part of the marmalade district. In fact the people in The Marmalade district would have laughed us out of the park if we had even suggested such a thing.

The area between North Temple - Warmsprings Park & 300W - Columbus St was the West capital area. Anything west of 300W was “The West Side”. The Marmalade District was a very small portion of the hill above Washington Elementary.... All official website still list that same area as The Marmalde District... even to this day. So what gives?

This is The Marmalade District. Sometimes people a little bit outside of that area would fold themselves in to that area... but never anything past 200 west... now it seems like it’s everything past 200 west trying to capitalize on somthing that they are not a part of.

[TonyAnderson]

S-Line developments.


Liberty Place - looks like site prep is underway. 70 townhomes.


Ritz Classic Apartments under construction - 287 units. Ground-level retail.



Zellerbach apartments - 292 units. Ground-level retail.



The Crossing - work finishing on the grocery store. Additional retail and residential upcoming.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I’m kind of curious. Who is it that decided to start referring to the block between 200W&300W and 500N&600N as “The Marmalade Block”? That’s really annoying to me because that block is not even in the Marmalde District. I grew up in “The West Capital” area (That’s what we called it)... specifically in the strip of land between 200W&300W. We never, ever, ever, ever referred to ourselves as being part of the marmalade district. In fact the people in The Marmalade district would have laughed us out of the park if we had even suggested such a thing.

The area between North Temple - Warmsprings Park & 300W - Columbus St was the West capital area. Anything west of 300W was “The West Side”. The Marmalade District was a very small portion of the hill above Washington Elementary.... All official website still list that same area as The Marmalde District... even to this day. So what gives?

This is The Marmalade District. Sometimes people a little bit outside of that area would fold themselves in to that area... but never anything past 200 west... now it seems like it’s everything past 200 west trying to capitalize on somthing that they are not a part of.

I like marmalade for the greater area. Maybe with actual SLC residents you can be more specific. I'd call that area the "heart of Marmalade".

I live in Liberty Wells but if I told a non resident that they would look at me crossed eyed. I usually say Sugarhouse when asked where I live. If they still look at me funny I say SLC.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Comrade

It's my opinion but it's shared by a lot of people. I think it's just extreme to say it has elegance. The arena has a lot of work to do to even come close to being a top10 arena in the league.

That doesn't take away from the atmosphere or the fans but it's not a top10 arena outside intimidation and noise. It's old. It's boxy. It's not architecturally bold or significant like some of the modern arenas or the older ones. It's a concrete box with windows. And frankly, the renovations, at least in the exterior, feel half-assed. I had always hoped the Viv would get a radical face lift and look less 1980s. But to me, it's only marginally better than Target Center or the Bradley Center.

[images snipped]

Which, to me, pushes the Viv down even further among NBA arenas.

Great fans. Great atmosphere. Crappy exterior. Which does kinda suck because, for better or worse, sports arenas play a huge role in the fabric of a city. The Viv is cold and isolated from downtown. Some of that can be corrected but it would've been nice to expand the arena on the north side out toward 300 West and South Temple, allowing for maybe a bar or restaurants that front the street. Oh well.

Being a diamond inscribed within a square, Vivint uses almost exactly half of its site. There is PLENTY of space to put in ancillary buildings and enmesh the arena within downtown, perhaps as part of a bridge between that UP depot property and the convention center/Cherry Creek area.

As a sidenote, the fact that Vivint's siting feels more like it belongs out in some nameless suburb somewhere than about two blocks from Salt Lake's cultural center says rather a lot about how Salt Lakers value their city, from an out-of-towner's perspective.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Main and Kensington

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by delts145

Comrade, as far as the arena design itself most simply disagree as far as what is being pointed at in named and pictured examples of what is aesthetically attractive.

Thing is, I'd wager most people would agree that the Viv is not all that aesthetically attractive and certainly not one of the more attractive arenas in the NBA. So, yeah, I think there is a consensus on the Viv, despite a few locals who feel it's an attractive, or aesthetically attractive building.

I just don't see many people praising the aesthetics of the exterior of the Viv. It just doesn't happen like, say, with the new Kings arena or the fieldhouse in Indianapolis.

At the end of the day, the Viv is a practical arena. But you'll find minimal people, outside Utah, who say it's one of the better arenas in the NBA.

Here's a quote form Fansided's NBA arena power rankings from last year that, to me, sums it up pretty well:

The Viv is small, which means that even the cheapest seats give you a good view of the action. Nothing else about the arena is noteworthy. It’s decently located in Salt Lake City, and the food is standard overpriced stadium fare.

https://fansided.com/2016/03/27/ranking-nba-arenas/

Either way, the Viv could still interact way more than it does with its area and that has been a sore spot for me over the years. I had hoped the renovations would change that, but nope. I also hoped the renovations would have more modernized at least the main entrance off South Temple, instead of keeping the outdated, 80s feel. Nope there, either.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Being a diamond inscribed within a square, Vivint uses almost exactly half of its site. There is PLENTY of space to put in ancillary buildings and enmesh the arena within downtown, perhaps as part of a bridge between that UP depot property and the convention center/Cherry Creek area.

Actually the structure itself by my calculations sits on approximately 35-40% of the site (the entire block not counting the sidewalk and parking strips). The corners of the building are still approximately 50 feet from the sidewalk--the closest Viv gets to the sidewalk, which is an absurd distance.


I agree that engagement is a serious issue with the arena and I really hope that eventually some of those corners are built on, particularly the NW and SE corners. The stairs on the NW corner look awful. There is even enough room on the corners that a structure wouldn't have to be attached to the arena, so there wouldn't be a significant cost for interfacing if they went that route. Or would it be cheaper to have it attached? I'm not entirely sure. There would certainly be less disruption if it weren't attached, and you could have a diagonal walkway when it's finished. And I would like that.

I do want to say that I think we'll be pleased with the interior renovation. Clearly it needed to be done. But I really hope there is another project in the next ten years that focuses on the exterior and street engagement, but I'm guessing a project like that won't realistically happen for a long time, unless it's relatively unambitious or the owners enter into some partnership with an eager developer that can be responsible for a good chunk of the funding. I'm guessing that is possible.

Vivint's location could be really great with some work. Most arenas are bordered by a freeway and/or huge swaths of surface parking. Vivint is kitty corner to two huge lots, but those realistically could be developed in the near future, or at least one of them...

[Comrade]

The biggest knock against the Viv, IMO, is that it's centrally located but, as pointed out by hammersklavier, could be plopped in West Valley and no one would notice the difference. There are some suburban NBA arenas that are awful, sitting in a sea of parking, miles from downtown interaction (Philadelphia, for example). But then you've got other arenas that actually interact with their downtown and let's be honest, the Viv ain't young. It's one of the oldest arenas in the NBA. It's 26 years old and its overall interaction is no different today than when it was built - this despite the Gateway opening just west of it 15 years ago.

For it being nearly in the heart of downtown, you WOULD expect better interaction. It's just not there. So, not only do I find it fairly unattractive, what could boost it, the overall interaction, isn't there, either, so, it gets two knocks for its exterior - how it looks and how it interacts with its neighborhood.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Here's a quote form Fansided's NBA arena power rankings from last year that, to me, sums it up pretty well:

https://fansided.com/2016/03/27/ranking-nba-arenas/

Vivint has the 7th highest capacity out of 30 teams. it isn't small(the bowl anyway). That's a ridiculous statement.

[bob rulz]

Oh we're still talking about the arena?

Thanks a lot for those picture updates TonyAnderson!

I'm really glad a lot of these S-Line developments are incorporating street level retail. In 10-15 years, I think the S-Line is going to be an absolutely gorgeous corridor whose appeal extends beyond the streetcar.

The Crossing is in a great location, WinCo is a good grocery store, and I like the mixed-use, but I'm really disappointed that the WinCo entrance is going to be across a huge sea of parking from the S-Line station. It would've been so easy to push the building up to the S-Line and place the parking behind. Huge missed opportunity there. Otherwise, I'm excited to see that development progress and to finally have a grocery store in that area, and a good one at that (not just a Wal-Mart or another Smiths).

[delts145]

Yes, thanks Tony, great update! Agree Bob. The S-line is exceeding my expectations for where I thought it would be at this point. It looks like it won't be long before it's a model corridor.

[GBurrow]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Oh we're still talking about the arena?

Thanks a lot for those picture updates TonyAnderson!

I'm really glad a lot of these S-Line developments are incorporating street level retail. In 10-15 years, I think the S-Line is going to be an absolutely gorgeous corridor whose appeal extends beyond the streetcar.

The Crossing is in a great location, WinCo is a good grocery store, and I like the mixed-use, but I'm really disappointed that the WinCo entrance is going to be across a huge sea of parking from the S-Line station. It would've been so easy to push the building up to the S-Line and place the parking behind. Huge missed opportunity there. Otherwise, I'm excited to see that development progress and to finally have a grocery store in that area, and a good one at that (not just a Wal-Mart or another Smiths).

Cowboy Partners is building an apartment complex between the S-Line between and Winco. My hope is that buildings are built all along the
perimeter and sandwich the parking in the middle of the development.

The link below includes a site plan and renderings for the apartment complex. It appears the Cowboy partners is proposing to build 95 town-homes instead of the apartments now. The renderings are in the latest minutes for the South Salt Lake Planning commission.

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.ph...i-state=dialog

http://www.southsaltlakecity.com/upl...PC_Meeting.pdf

[airhero]

It looks like new planning documents were submitted for Violin School Commons (315 E 200 S) on Friday. It's good to finally see some movement on this.


from SLC planning docs

[twig]

Sorry Delts but once again you are wrong. IMO the vivant center is a very unimaginative block of concrete that would fit in so much better in some suburb than our city center. But I guess it just reflects the type of attitude our city developers and leaders really think about our city. The only ones who can do anything awesome in this city is the Mormon church.
I guess I set my standards too high for this city, when I take a step back I realize that this really isn't much of a city at all, its so small and its just a large sprawling mess. Its almost embarrassing. The only thing good this city has going for it is the mountains.

[twig]

Originally Posted by Mountain man

My goodness you guys Drop It. Its a basketball stadium, get over it. Is it nice? Yes! Is it perfect or one of the top? No. Its extremely subjective to ones opinion, so sorry Delts and Comrade but I think arguing it and trying to prove it with things or pictures isn't going to change anyones opinions. I swear you guys argue about the most subjective and dumbest things on earth like best mountains, best basketball stadiums, best scenery, some of the best downtown sites and restaurant scenes in the country. (all of which have been argued over the past few pages.) Well last I checked all that is just ones opinion. Do you want to know my opinion? Mountains- most stunning goes to Salt Lake and Colorado Springs, Most beautiful goes to Colorado as a whole including right outside of Denver, and Sierra Nevadas.-- Basketball stadiums-I like the Vivant Arena, was not overly impressed. --Best scenery? Yes Salt lake is one of the most beautiful cities in America, but I think most major cities in California and Honolulu definitely are more beautiful. Does Salt Lake have an impressive restaurant scene? Maybe but not from what I've noticed from my experience.

Okay now just like everyone else I have noted my opinions. I have no doubt in my mind that someone is going to argue me on MY OPINION. Which aren't going to change and neither will anyone else's.

As Salt Lake being one of my favorite cities and a city I visit on a monthly basis I come on this forum because I'm excited to see what development is going on and to see what this city has in store. But my gosh you all have ruined the Salt Lake forum and made it completely unenjoyable to read anymore. How many other people from out of town come onto this forum because they are excited to see whats going on here just to find an almost completely pathetic mess? For a little bit there I thought you guys were able to actually stay positive and on subject with development, but man was I wrong.

I honestly don't think I'll be following the Salt Lake forum all that much longer because its become pathetic.

California sucks when comparing it to Salt Lake in Scenery. Just saying

[SaltLakemojo]

First time posting here, I've been following this thread for several years now but never had anything to say. But I think I'm with Mountain man on this, I think I'm done with this thread. Maybe I'll come back in a few months to see if you guys can grow up, but until then goodbye my friends.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Comrade

The biggest knock against the Viv, IMO, is that it's centrally located but, as pointed out by hammersklavier, could be plopped in West Valley and no one would notice the difference. There are some suburban NBA arenas that are awful, sitting in a sea of parking, miles from downtown interaction (Philadelphia, for example). But then you've got other arenas that actually interact with their downtown and let's be honest, the Viv ain't young. It's one of the oldest arenas in the NBA. It's 26 years old and its overall interaction is no different today than when it was built - this despite the Gateway opening just west of it 15 years ago.

For it being nearly in the heart of downtown, you WOULD expect better interaction. It's just not there. So, not only do I find it fairly unattractive, what could boost it, the overall interaction, isn't there, either, so, it gets two knocks for its exterior - how it looks and how it interacts with its neighborhood.

To be fair, our arena is still in the city (about three very walkable miles from City Hall) and lies at the terminus of a subway line ... more like Chicago's in that regard. But yes, I'd love to see that enormous parking crater get built on, and that dinky Xfinity Live thing they put in a couple of years back felt like it was just an appetizer.

The best part about it, though, was that it was a total guido lure that got that annoying Jersey Shore set out of Old City!