Calgary Condo Talk

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by *Stardust*

So I finally went and saw Park Point today, and I went to the Royal as well.

As for The Royal, I felt underwhelmed by it. Architecturally the building is very nice and the floor plans are better than Park Point, but the finishes are not my style. I feel that they cheaped out on things like the bathroom and kitchen. I think for the high price point they could have done better.

Glad you dropped by the Royal show suite.

While I didn't have the same reaction as you in terms of the finishings, I do think that they went a bit too trendy and the millwork finishing may not age all that well. The floorplans are great though, with the exception of the 'A' plan (studio).

[Electrical Storm]

I'll post this here, as it's mostly a condo related topic. This is a question for SSPers:

I'm far more familiar with Vancouver developers and I find that what they build in Calgary isn't too far off from what they'd build in Vancouver. As the influx of Toronto developers (Minto, Fram, Lamb/Fortress, GG, etc.) begins in the Calgary market, how will their product differ from their hometown product and what will these developers contribute the city (both market wise and built-form/urbanism wise)...?

[Spring2008]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Isn't The Royal a tall point tower next to a low slung podium?

With close to 100k commercial space including some big box urban format. Bosa's partnership with RioCan in EV will be even larger. We need more of this here, nobody's going to build these as stand alone with land values being so high.

[Spring2008]

They should be similar in quality, prob vary a bit in design and built form. I've been very happy with the Van highrise and midrise developers here, we haven't seen as much TO but they look promising. These big developers do their research before selecting key markets. They're not going drop crap and ruin their rep in a new market they want to expand in.

Originally Posted by Electrical Storm

I'll post this here, as it's mostly a condo related topic. This is a question for SSPers:

I'm far more familiar with Vancouver developers and I find that what they build in Calgary isn't too far off from what they'd build in Vancouver. As the influx of Toronto developers (Minto, Fram, Lamb/Fortress, GG, etc.) begins in the Calgary market, how will their product differ from their hometown product and what will these developers contribute the city (both market wise and built-form/urbanism wise)...?

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by Spring2008

They should be similar in quality, prob vary a bit in design and built form. I've been very happy with the Van highrise and midrise developers here, we haven't seen as much TO but they look promising. These big developers do their research before selecting key markets. They're not going drop crap and ruin their rep in a new market they want to expand in.

My thoughts exactly - was just looking for the alternative views from fellow SSPers. I believe First in EV will the first Toronto developer based project to be completed here (I'm excluding University City as its a joint Calgary-Toronto development).

[suburbia]

Sharing a relevant discussion from the primary construction thread that should have been here:

Originally Posted by J-D

Lots of nasty stories floating around about POV/Carlisle. I wonder how much of it is true?

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Special assessments galore in all their projects. I'd never buy anything built by that company. The price point is low for a reason.

Originally Posted by Doug

The same can be said about many inner city condo developments Calgary over about the last 15 years.

Originally Posted by *Stardust*

Yup. Calla had one 8 months after the building was completed.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Spring2008

With close to 100k commercial space including some big box urban format. Bosa's partnership with RioCan in EV will be even larger. We need more of this here, nobody's going to build these as stand alone with land values being so high.

I know. Thought you were referring more to built form. The Royal combines a tall residential point tower and a four storey commercial building on a large site. I wonder if midrise blocks of residential on top of commercial would have been a better fit for the site.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Electrical Storm

I'll post this here, as it's mostly a condo related topic. This is a question for SSPers:

I'm far more familiar with Vancouver developers and I find that what they build in Calgary isn't too far off from what they'd build in Vancouver. As the influx of Toronto developers (Minto, Fram, Lamb/Fortress, GG, etc.) begins in the Calgary market, how will their product differ from their hometown product and what will these developers contribute the city (both market wise and built-form/urbanism wise)...?

There isn't a prescribe model Toronto developers must adhere to. Buildings come in all shapes and styles. Shape depends on the height allowed and the geometry of the site. All about pushing density. Style depends on the developer and their relationship with the various architectural firms.

Vancouver developers tend to use local architects and build to Toronto specs. Maybe it's more a case of what's allowed in Calgary isn't too far off from what's allowed in Vancouver.

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

There isn't a prescribe model Toronto developers must adhere to. Buildings come in all shapes and styles. Shape depends on the height allowed and the geometry of the site. All about pushing density. Style depends on the developer and their relationship with the various architectural firms.

Sure, but you kind of missed my point... I wasn't specifically referring exclusively to buildings themselves. Vancouver and Toronto developers create different trends in their respective condo markets - and Calgary is an interesting case where the two paradigms meet.

[Spring2008]

There's lots of variety in both markets, but there are noticeable distinctions in massing, height, cladding etc between Van and TO in general.

Not bad for downtown ~5000 units u/c. The inner city neighbourhoods around the City Centre have almost all kept pace too on a relative basis. Lots of inner neighbourhoods with 5 - 10% per annum growth in recent years. Liking this trend. The inner city starting to feel like its own dense island.

Meredith said 13,675 residential highrise condos are proposed, under construction or in pre-construction in the city centre, which includes East Village, the Beltline and downtown. That’s up from 12,447 in May 2014.

According to data supplied by Meredith, 2,793 condo units (for sale) are under construction in addition to 2,093 rental units. Building permits are in place for these projects and site excavation has started.

There are 1,947 condos units in the pre-construction stage and 2,363 rental units for a total of 4,479. These are projects which have submitted development permits.

http://calgaryherald.com/business/real-e...r-bullish-on-calgary-luxury-condo-market

[suburbia]

There was anecdotal evidence of this shared by others earlier. Looks like tracked metrics are now catching up to the reality, and the trend is worrying.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/condo-sales-in-calgary-drop-to-2010-levels-1.3047707

Condo sales in Calgary drop to 2010 levels
<>
In the first quarter of 2015, sales totals were down 61 per cent compared to the first quarter of last year, the Altus Group market update says.
And so far this year sales are 53 per cent lower than the average over the past five years.

The article added that this performance is actually better than they expected. Raises the question of how bad exactly did they expect the market to perform!

But Altus research director Matthew Boukall says the volume of new home sales is actually remarkably strong given the gloomy economic outlook.

"For the first three months of the year, there were lots of negative media stories about how bad the economy was becoming in Alberta, yet over 500 consumers still went out and purchased a new home," he said in an email to CBC News.

I'd also be curious about recent experience of forumers. The prior discussion was about someone purchasing a unit, and then like-units being offered subsequently for slash and burn prices.

"Sales launch activity is substantially weaker than the past few years with investors having effectively exited the market for the time being," the report says.

The available inventory of new condominium supplies is up to over 2,700 units, the highest level since 2008.

Visit the link to read the rest of the article.

[jmb]

Originally Posted by suburbia

There was anecdotal evidence of this shared by others earlier. Looks like tracked metrics are now catching up to the reality, and the trend is worrying.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/condo-sales-in-calgary-drop-to-2010-levels-1.3047707


The article added that this performance is actually better than they expected. Raises the question of how bad exactly did they expect the market to perform!



I'd also be curious about recent experience of forumers. The prior discussion was about someone purchasing a unit, and then like-units being offered subsequently for slash and burn prices.



Visit the link to read the rest of the article.

Pre-sale performance is definately down to 2010 absorptions, but prices are/wont be at 2010 prices. New Beltline/EV pre-sales like Park Point and Royal that have launched post oil crash are still selling at avg $610++/sf, and are doing well considering.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Electrical Storm

Sure, but you kind of missed my point... I wasn't specifically referring exclusively to buildings themselves. Vancouver and Toronto developers create different trends in their respective condo markets - and Calgary is an interesting case where the two paradigms meet.

You did mention built form and I responded to it. I can't comment on design/marketing trends as I'm unfamiliar with the market in Vancouver. I assume there's isn't a lot of difference with a wide range of options to appeal to everyone. Vancouver developers also have a huge presence in Toronto. Anything trending there finds its way here.

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

You did mention built form and I responded to it. I can't comment on design/marketing trends as I'm unfamiliar with the market in Vancouver. I assume there's isn't a lot of difference with a wide range of options to appeal to everyone. Vancouver developers also have a huge presence in Toronto. Anything trending there finds its way here.

No worries, I may have been a bit vague :/

Anyways, i appreciate your insight.

[Spring2008]

Stubornia - condo prices haven't rolled back 5 yrs, they're down a few % points at most.

As far as condo sales down, duh. Condo/townhouse sales have been hitting record numbers over the past few years, price growth has also led the nation here over that time. I wouldn't expect people to keep buy, buy, buying the first quarter after a major oil collapse. Economy stabilizes and multi-family sales will be back at or above record levels. Just look at land prices around here/the city's growth framework.

[Electrical Storm]

Originally Posted by suburbia

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/condo-sales-in-calgary-drop-to-2010-levels-1.3047707

As jmb and Spring noted… The link you provided is about inventory/absorption levels. While it's clear that prices will drop – your statement about pricing (“Condo prices roll back five years”) isn’t pertinent or factual.

For actual stats: http://www.creb.com/Seller_Resources/Housing_Statistics/

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Spring2008

Stubornia - condo prices haven't rolled back 5 yrs

My bad in constructing the title for the post. But at least I provided a link to the original source, allowing you the honour of correcting me!!!

Anyway, your "Duh" comment likely wasn't required. I don't think anyone could have guessed the declines in the over 50% range, nor the epic level of the truly massive condo inventory glut (largely in the Beltline).

[Surrealplaces]

Car-loving Calgary considers a 167-unit condo - with no parking

N3 featured in Globe and Mail article

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/home...c.&utm_campaign=Shared+Web+Article+Links

No shortage of interest in the project.

That said, his company, Knightsbridge Homes, hasn’t even done any advertising or marketing and they have 650 names of buyers interested in the 167 units. The project includes a second-phase tower that will have 200 units.

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Anyway, your "Duh" comment likely wasn't required. I don't think anyone could have guessed the declines in the over 50% range, nor the epic level of the truly massive condo inventory glut (largely in the Beltline).

Nobody could have guessed the 'epic level of truly massive condo inventory glut' because it sits at less than 100 units for the whole core.The recent changes in inventory have been mostly outside of the core. You'll notice that since Q2 2014 the inventory for downtown hasn't changed much and has been steady, but in other parts of the city the inventory is rising.

[Sands]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

Nobody could have guessed the 'epic level of truly massive condo inventory glut' because it sits at less than 100 units for the whole core.The recent changes in inventory have been mostly outside of the core. You'll notice that since Q2 2014 the inventory for downtown hasn't changed much and has been steady, but in other parts of the city the inventory is rising.

Does this inventory level include new built or project still under construction? Seems only secondary market. And does Core include Beltline?